ARZone Podcast 85: Kim Socha - Animal Liberation and Atheism - Animal Rights Zone2024-03-28T17:04:01Zhttp://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/arzone-podcast-85-kim-socha-animal-liberation-and-atheism?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A149450&feed=yes&xn_auth=novery interesting but when she…tag:arzone.ning.com,2015-02-03:4715978:Comment:1493642015-02-03T01:01:34.095Zlioubahttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/liouba
<p>very interesting but when she says that even in a vegan world our government and corporation would still make it impossible the problem is capitalism, not speciesm I think.</p>
<p>It is sad that the author thinks that the nature of living beings is not good. There are a lot of examples that shows that reel altruism exists, and I am sure that she could continue the conversion with a buddhist such as Mathieu Ricard who do believe in the goodness of living beings.</p>
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<p>very interesting but when she says that even in a vegan world our government and corporation would still make it impossible the problem is capitalism, not speciesm I think.</p>
<p>It is sad that the author thinks that the nature of living beings is not good. There are a lot of examples that shows that reel altruism exists, and I am sure that she could continue the conversion with a buddhist such as Mathieu Ricard who do believe in the goodness of living beings.</p>
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<p></p> Tim, you have it almost exact…tag:arzone.ning.com,2015-02-01:4715978:Comment:1494562015-02-01T17:23:31.155ZJeffrey Cohanhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/JeffreyCohan
<p>Tim, you have it almost exactly right. I say "almost" because you could accurately express the idea in even stronger terms. Many leading rabbis have said that the kosher laws were meant as a temporary concession, and that we should have already matriculated ethically to vegetarianism or veganism.<br></br> <br></br> <cite>Tim Gier said:…</cite></p>
<p>Tim, you have it almost exactly right. I say "almost" because you could accurately express the idea in even stronger terms. Many leading rabbis have said that the kosher laws were meant as a temporary concession, and that we should have already matriculated ethically to vegetarianism or veganism.<br/> <br/> <cite>Tim Gier said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/arzone-podcast-85-kim-socha-animal-liberation-and-atheism?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A149455&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4715978Comment149455"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Hi again Jeffrey,</p>
<p>Among other verses, I take it that Isaiah 65:24-25 speak to the ideal you've mentioned? (I'm including the KJV version of those verses here, for anyone who hasn't read them)<br/><br/>24: And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are not speaking, I will hear. 25. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock; and dust shall be the serpent's meal. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain,saith the Lord.<br/><br/>I have to say that Isaiah contains some beautiful imagery and much powerful prose. After reading it, it's easy for me to remember why the Bible is such an influential work. I'm happy that our discussion caused me to look at it again, so thank you for that.<br/><br/>If I'm getting what you're saying and what's being said in Isaiah, then the idea is that humanity, because of it's imperfect condition, has always been missing the mark with respect to God's plan, however well or poorly humanity may have aimed. So, while it may be permissible, given humanity's imperfection, for it to act in some ways, it's only because of the imperfection that it is permissible. One of the permitted actions, since after the Flood, has been the killing and eating of other animals, but humanity ought to aim away from that, not towards it. Have I got it somewhat right?</p>
<p><br/><br/> <cite>Jeffrey Cohan said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/arzone-podcast-85-kim-socha-animal-liberation-and-atheism#4715978Comment149349"><div><p>Hi Tim,</p>
<p>Yes, there have been rabbinic disagreements recorded throughout history, but each argument must remain within certain theological boundaries to be considered valid.</p>
<p>A very circumscribed form of meat-eating is permitted within Judaism, while the entire plant kingdom is available to Jews without restriction. </p>
<p>Further, meat-eating, while permitted in limited form, is described as a concession to human lust, while a plant-based diet is presented as God's design for humankind. </p>
<p>Among rabbis as a demographic group, you will find a higher percentage of vegetarians and vegans than you will among the general population, for religious reasons. And several of the most influential/famous rabbis over the past 100 years have espoused vegetarianism. </p>
<p>Everything I'm telling you is mainstream Jewish thought. We're very careful as an organization to hew to a solid theological base, which is why I was so disappointed with Kim's remarks. </p>
<p>Jeffrey</p>
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</blockquote> Hi again Jeffrey,
Among other…tag:arzone.ning.com,2015-02-01:4715978:Comment:1494552015-02-01T14:53:31.795ZTim Gierhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/TimGier
<p>Hi again Jeffrey,</p>
<p>Among other verses, I take it that Isaiah 65:24-25 speak to the ideal you've mentioned? (I'm including the KJV version of those verses here, for anyone who hasn't read them)<br></br><br></br>24: And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are not speaking, I will hear. 25. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock; and dust shall be the serpent's meal. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my…</p>
<p>Hi again Jeffrey,</p>
<p>Among other verses, I take it that Isaiah 65:24-25 speak to the ideal you've mentioned? (I'm including the KJV version of those verses here, for anyone who hasn't read them)<br/><br/>24: And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are not speaking, I will hear. 25. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock; and dust shall be the serpent's meal. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain,saith the Lord.<br/><br/>I have to say that Isaiah contains some beautiful imagery and much powerful prose. After reading it, it's easy for me to remember why the Bible is such an influential work. I'm happy that our discussion caused me to look at it again, so thank you for that.<br/><br/>If I'm getting what you're saying and what's being said in Isaiah, then the idea is that humanity, because of it's imperfect condition, has always been missing the mark with respect to God's plan, however well or poorly humanity may have aimed. So, while it may be permissible, given humanity's imperfection, for it to act in some ways, it's only because of the imperfection that it is permissible. One of the permitted actions, since after the Flood, has been the killing and eating of other animals, but humanity ought to aim away from that, not towards it. Have I got it somewhat right?</p>
<p><br/><br/> <cite>Jeffrey Cohan said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/arzone-podcast-85-kim-socha-animal-liberation-and-atheism#4715978Comment149349"><div><p>Hi Tim,</p>
<p>Yes, there have been rabbinic disagreements recorded throughout history, but each argument must remain within certain theological boundaries to be considered valid.</p>
<p>A very circumscribed form of meat-eating is permitted within Judaism, while the entire plant kingdom is available to Jews without restriction. </p>
<p>Further, meat-eating, while permitted in limited form, is described as a concession to human lust, while a plant-based diet is presented as God's design for humankind. </p>
<p>Among rabbis as a demographic group, you will find a higher percentage of vegetarians and vegans than you will among the general population, for religious reasons. And several of the most influential/famous rabbis over the past 100 years have espoused vegetarianism. </p>
<p>Everything I'm telling you is mainstream Jewish thought. We're very careful as an organization to hew to a solid theological base, which is why I was so disappointed with Kim's remarks. </p>
<p>Jeffrey</p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
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</blockquote> Hi Tim,
Yes, there have been…tag:arzone.ning.com,2015-01-30:4715978:Comment:1493492015-01-30T18:59:22.329ZJeffrey Cohanhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/JeffreyCohan
<p>Hi Tim,</p>
<p>Yes, there have been rabbinic disagreements recorded throughout history, but each argument must remain within certain theological boundaries to be considered valid.</p>
<p>A very circumscribed form of meat-eating is permitted within Judaism, while the entire plant kingdom is available to Jews without restriction. </p>
<p>Further, meat-eating, while permitted in limited form, is described as a concession to human lust, while a plant-based diet is presented as God's design for…</p>
<p>Hi Tim,</p>
<p>Yes, there have been rabbinic disagreements recorded throughout history, but each argument must remain within certain theological boundaries to be considered valid.</p>
<p>A very circumscribed form of meat-eating is permitted within Judaism, while the entire plant kingdom is available to Jews without restriction. </p>
<p>Further, meat-eating, while permitted in limited form, is described as a concession to human lust, while a plant-based diet is presented as God's design for humankind. </p>
<p>Among rabbis as a demographic group, you will find a higher percentage of vegetarians and vegans than you will among the general population, for religious reasons. And several of the most influential/famous rabbis over the past 100 years have espoused vegetarianism. </p>
<p>Everything I'm telling you is mainstream Jewish thought. We're very careful as an organization to hew to a solid theological base, which is why I was so disappointed with Kim's remarks. </p>
<p>Jeffrey</p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
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<p></p>
<p></p> Hi again Jeffrey,
It occurred…tag:arzone.ning.com,2015-01-30:4715978:Comment:1495212015-01-30T16:46:46.894ZTim Gierhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/TimGier
<p>Hi again Jeffrey,</p>
<p>It occurred to me that there must be different rabbinic commentaries or different ways to interpret the same commentaries in that not all Jews are vegan or vegetarian. Is that right? <br></br> <br></br> <cite>Jeffrey Cohan said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/arzone-podcast-85-kim-socha-animal-liberation-and-atheism#4715978Comment149451"><div><p>The short answer is yes. </p>
<p>In what is considered the most authoritative description of the…</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Hi again Jeffrey,</p>
<p>It occurred to me that there must be different rabbinic commentaries or different ways to interpret the same commentaries in that not all Jews are vegan or vegetarian. Is that right? <br/> <br/> <cite>Jeffrey Cohan said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/arzone-podcast-85-kim-socha-animal-liberation-and-atheism#4715978Comment149451"><div><p>The short answer is yes. </p>
<p>In what is considered the most authoritative description of the future Messianic era, even the animals are vegan (Book of Isaiah). </p>
<p>For now, God makes it abundantly clear in Numbers 11 and Deuteronomy 12 that meat-eating is not the Divine preference, but a symptom of human lust. </p>
<p> </p>
<p></p>
<p><br/> <br/> <cite>Tim Gier said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/arzone-podcast-85-kim-socha-animal-liberation-and-atheism?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A149450&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4715978Comment149450"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>HI Jeffrey, thank you for that reply. I am (obviously) not fully informed on the issue. Given the moral weakness of humankind, is it thought that God will or has revoked His permission for us to eat other animals?<br/> <br/> <cite>Jeffrey Cohan said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/arzone-podcast-85-kim-socha-animal-liberation-and-atheism?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A149449&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4715978Comment149449"><div><p>Hi Tim,</p>
<p>Thank you for your response. </p>
<p>There is so much packed into Genesis 9, I can't do justice to the issue in this forum, so please forgive this incomplete answer. I'll just add two facts to our discussion. </p>
<p>Jews do not believe in a literal interpretation (or the "plain text") of the Torah/Bible. Our understanding of the Torah is filtered through rabbinic interpretation, which is canonized in the Mishnah and the Gemara, then further distilled in later commentary.</p>
<p>So Kim was applying the wrong lens to her interpretation. We don't read or understand the Bible in the same way that a Christian Fundamentalist might. </p>
<p>With respect to Genesis 9 specifically, it's the chapter that comes immediately after a disgusted God has wiped out humankind in the Flood. The permission to eat meat is widely viewed by rabbinic authorities as a concession to the moral weakness of humankind, not as an expression of our religious ideals. To drive that point home, it states five times in Genesis 9 alone that God includes animals in the Divine Covenant. </p>
<p>Again, please forgive this partial response. </p>
<p></p>
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</blockquote> Thanks again Jeffrey. I will…tag:arzone.ning.com,2015-01-29:4715978:Comment:1494522015-01-29T17:05:02.689ZTim Gierhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/TimGier
<p>Thanks again Jeffrey. I will make time to read Isaiah in the next few days.<br></br> <br></br> <cite>Jeffrey Cohan said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/arzone-podcast-85-kim-socha-animal-liberation-and-atheism?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A149451&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4715978Comment149451"><div><p>The short answer is yes. </p>
<p>In what is considered the most authoritative description of the future Messianic era, even the animals are vegan (Book of…</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Thanks again Jeffrey. I will make time to read Isaiah in the next few days.<br/> <br/> <cite>Jeffrey Cohan said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/arzone-podcast-85-kim-socha-animal-liberation-and-atheism?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A149451&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4715978Comment149451"><div><p>The short answer is yes. </p>
<p>In what is considered the most authoritative description of the future Messianic era, even the animals are vegan (Book of Isaiah). </p>
<p>For now, God makes it abundantly clear in Numbers 11 and Deuteronomy 12 that meat-eating is not the Divine preference, but a symptom of human lust. </p>
<p> </p>
<p></p>
<p><br/> <br/> <cite>Tim Gier said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/arzone-podcast-85-kim-socha-animal-liberation-and-atheism?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A149450&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4715978Comment149450"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>HI Jeffrey, thank you for that reply. I am (obviously) not fully informed on the issue. Given the moral weakness of humankind, is it thought that God will or has revoked His permission for us to eat other animals?<br/> <br/> <cite>Jeffrey Cohan said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/arzone-podcast-85-kim-socha-animal-liberation-and-atheism?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A149449&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4715978Comment149449"><div><p>Hi Tim,</p>
<p>Thank you for your response. </p>
<p>There is so much packed into Genesis 9, I can't do justice to the issue in this forum, so please forgive this incomplete answer. I'll just add two facts to our discussion. </p>
<p>Jews do not believe in a literal interpretation (or the "plain text") of the Torah/Bible. Our understanding of the Torah is filtered through rabbinic interpretation, which is canonized in the Mishnah and the Gemara, then further distilled in later commentary.</p>
<p>So Kim was applying the wrong lens to her interpretation. We don't read or understand the Bible in the same way that a Christian Fundamentalist might. </p>
<p>With respect to Genesis 9 specifically, it's the chapter that comes immediately after a disgusted God has wiped out humankind in the Flood. The permission to eat meat is widely viewed by rabbinic authorities as a concession to the moral weakness of humankind, not as an expression of our religious ideals. To drive that point home, it states five times in Genesis 9 alone that God includes animals in the Divine Covenant. </p>
<p>Again, please forgive this partial response. </p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
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</blockquote> The short answer is yes.
In…tag:arzone.ning.com,2015-01-29:4715978:Comment:1494512015-01-29T16:36:45.817ZJeffrey Cohanhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/JeffreyCohan
<p>The short answer is yes. </p>
<p>In what is considered the most authoritative description of the future Messianic era, even the animals are vegan (Book of Isaiah). </p>
<p>For now, God makes it abundantly clear in Numbers 11 and Deuteronomy 12 that meat-eating is not the Divine preference, but a symptom of human lust. </p>
<p> </p>
<p></p>
<p><br></br> <br></br> <cite>Tim Gier said:…</cite></p>
<p>The short answer is yes. </p>
<p>In what is considered the most authoritative description of the future Messianic era, even the animals are vegan (Book of Isaiah). </p>
<p>For now, God makes it abundantly clear in Numbers 11 and Deuteronomy 12 that meat-eating is not the Divine preference, but a symptom of human lust. </p>
<p> </p>
<p></p>
<p><br/> <br/> <cite>Tim Gier said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/arzone-podcast-85-kim-socha-animal-liberation-and-atheism?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A149450&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4715978Comment149450"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>HI Jeffrey, thank you for that reply. I am (obviously) not fully informed on the issue. Given the moral weakness of humankind, is it thought that God will or has revoked His permission for us to eat other animals?<br/> <br/> <cite>Jeffrey Cohan said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/arzone-podcast-85-kim-socha-animal-liberation-and-atheism?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A149449&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4715978Comment149449"><div><p>Hi Tim,</p>
<p>Thank you for your response. </p>
<p>There is so much packed into Genesis 9, I can't do justice to the issue in this forum, so please forgive this incomplete answer. I'll just add two facts to our discussion. </p>
<p>Jews do not believe in a literal interpretation (or the "plain text") of the Torah/Bible. Our understanding of the Torah is filtered through rabbinic interpretation, which is canonized in the Mishnah and the Gemara, then further distilled in later commentary.</p>
<p>So Kim was applying the wrong lens to her interpretation. We don't read or understand the Bible in the same way that a Christian Fundamentalist might. </p>
<p>With respect to Genesis 9 specifically, it's the chapter that comes immediately after a disgusted God has wiped out humankind in the Flood. The permission to eat meat is widely viewed by rabbinic authorities as a concession to the moral weakness of humankind, not as an expression of our religious ideals. To drive that point home, it states five times in Genesis 9 alone that God includes animals in the Divine Covenant. </p>
<p>Again, please forgive this partial response. </p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
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</blockquote> HI Jeffrey, thank you for tha…tag:arzone.ning.com,2015-01-29:4715978:Comment:1494502015-01-29T15:05:38.292ZTim Gierhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/TimGier
<p>HI Jeffrey, thank you for that reply. I am (obviously) not fully informed on the issue. Given the moral weakness of humankind, is it thought that God will or has revoked His permission for us to eat other animals?<br></br> <br></br> <cite>Jeffrey Cohan said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/arzone-podcast-85-kim-socha-animal-liberation-and-atheism?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A149449&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4715978Comment149449"><div><p>Hi Tim,</p>
<p>Thank you…</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>HI Jeffrey, thank you for that reply. I am (obviously) not fully informed on the issue. Given the moral weakness of humankind, is it thought that God will or has revoked His permission for us to eat other animals?<br/> <br/> <cite>Jeffrey Cohan said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/arzone-podcast-85-kim-socha-animal-liberation-and-atheism?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A149449&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4715978Comment149449"><div><p>Hi Tim,</p>
<p>Thank you for your response. </p>
<p>There is so much packed into Genesis 9, I can't do justice to the issue in this forum, so please forgive this incomplete answer. I'll just add two facts to our discussion. </p>
<p>Jews do not believe in a literal interpretation (or the "plain text") of the Torah/Bible. Our understanding of the Torah is filtered through rabbinic interpretation, which is canonized in the Mishnah and the Gemara, then further distilled in later commentary.</p>
<p>So Kim was applying the wrong lens to her interpretation. We don't read or understand the Bible in the same way that a Christian Fundamentalist might. </p>
<p>With respect to Genesis 9 specifically, it's the chapter that comes immediately after a disgusted God has wiped out humankind in the Flood. The permission to eat meat is widely viewed by rabbinic authorities as a concession to the moral weakness of humankind, not as an expression of our religious ideals. To drive that point home, it states five times in Genesis 9 alone that God includes animals in the Divine Covenant. </p>
<p>Again, please forgive this partial response. </p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
</div>
</blockquote> Hi Tim,
Thank you for your re…tag:arzone.ning.com,2015-01-29:4715978:Comment:1494492015-01-29T13:24:34.646ZJeffrey Cohanhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/JeffreyCohan
<p>Hi Tim,</p>
<p>Thank you for your response. </p>
<p>There is so much packed into Genesis 9, I can't do justice to the issue in this forum, so please forgive this incomplete answer. I'll just add two facts to our discussion. </p>
<p>Jews do not believe in a literal interpretation (or the "plain text") of the Torah/Bible. Our understanding of the Torah is filtered through rabbinic interpretation, which is canonized in the Mishnah and the Gemara, then further distilled in later…</p>
<p>Hi Tim,</p>
<p>Thank you for your response. </p>
<p>There is so much packed into Genesis 9, I can't do justice to the issue in this forum, so please forgive this incomplete answer. I'll just add two facts to our discussion. </p>
<p>Jews do not believe in a literal interpretation (or the "plain text") of the Torah/Bible. Our understanding of the Torah is filtered through rabbinic interpretation, which is canonized in the Mishnah and the Gemara, then further distilled in later commentary.</p>
<p>So Kim was applying the wrong lens to her interpretation. We don't read or understand the Bible in the same way that a Christian Fundamentalist might. </p>
<p>With respect to Genesis 9 specifically, it's the chapter that comes immediately after a disgusted God has wiped out humankind in the Flood. The permission to eat meat is widely viewed by rabbinic authorities as a concession to the moral weakness of humankind, not as an expression of our religious ideals. To drive that point home, it states five times in Genesis 9 alone that God includes animals in the Divine Covenant. </p>
<p>Again, please forgive this partial response. </p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p> Hi Jeffrey,
What context does…tag:arzone.ning.com,2015-01-29:4715978:Comment:1493482015-01-29T12:07:03.558ZTim Gierhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/TimGier
<p>Hi Jeffrey,</p>
<p>What context does Genesis 9 need to make it more clear? It seems to me that what the JVNA says it on it's website is exactly the sort of thing that Kim Socha is critical about it: the reinterpreting of the plain text of a document in such a way as to read into it something that isn't there in order to make that interpretation fit with what one wishes the document did say. Please correct me if I'm wrong.<br></br><br></br>I'll speak with Carolyn about ARZone conducting an interview…</p>
<p>Hi Jeffrey,</p>
<p>What context does Genesis 9 need to make it more clear? It seems to me that what the JVNA says it on it's website is exactly the sort of thing that Kim Socha is critical about it: the reinterpreting of the plain text of a document in such a way as to read into it something that isn't there in order to make that interpretation fit with what one wishes the document did say. Please correct me if I'm wrong.<br/><br/>I'll speak with Carolyn about ARZone conducting an interview with the JVNA; it maybe something of interest and value to our members. Thank you for the suggestion.</p>
<p><br/> <cite>Jeffrey Cohan said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/arzone-podcast-85-kim-socha-animal-liberation-and-atheism#4715978Comment149515"><div><p>Thank you for mentioning JVNA on this podcast, although I was very disappointed by Kim Socha's response.</p>
<p>She twisted the meaning of Genesis 9 almost 180 degrees, taking it out of context and getting it backwards.</p>
<p>There is a reason several of the nation's most prominent rabbis are on the Rabbinic Council of JVNA.</p>
<p>It would be wonderful if the ARZone gave a JVNA leader a chance to set the record straight and educate your listeners about what the Torah really says about animals. </p>
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