But if you do right to me baby.... - Animal Rights Zone2024-03-28T23:46:47Zhttp://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/but-if-you-do-right-to-me-baby?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A110250&xg_source=activity&feed=yes&xn_auth=noHi Spencer,
I find that the c…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-09-25:4715978:Comment:1102702012-09-25T23:09:24.804ZTim Gierhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/TimGier
<p>Hi Spencer,</p>
<p>I find that the closer I read Francione, the less sense he makes.</p>
<p><br></br> <cite>Spencer Lo said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/but-if-you-do-right-to-me-baby?page=2&commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A110372&x=1#4715978Comment110372"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Hi Tim,</p>
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<p>And if we took Francione's concept of "use" literally -- as something distinct from treatment -- it wouldn't make sense. As David Sztybel…</p>
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<p>Hi Spencer,</p>
<p>I find that the closer I read Francione, the less sense he makes.</p>
<p><br/> <cite>Spencer Lo said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/but-if-you-do-right-to-me-baby?page=2&commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A110372&x=1#4715978Comment110372"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Hi Tim,</p>
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<p>And if we took Francione's concept of "use" literally -- as something distinct from treatment -- it wouldn't make sense. As David Sztybel has pointed out, we use animals when we make them photography or videography subjects, but that's <em>obviously</em> not objectionable.</p>
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</blockquote> Hi Tim,
And if we took Franc…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-09-25:4715978:Comment:1103722012-09-25T21:03:02.830ZSpencer Lohttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/SpencerLo
<p>Hi Tim,</p>
<p></p>
<p>And if we took Francione's concept of "use" literally -- as something distinct from treatment -- it wouldn't make sense. As David Sztybel has pointed out, we use animals when we make them photography or videography subjects, but that's <em>obviously</em> not objectionable.</p>
<p>Hi Tim,</p>
<p></p>
<p>And if we took Francione's concept of "use" literally -- as something distinct from treatment -- it wouldn't make sense. As David Sztybel has pointed out, we use animals when we make them photography or videography subjects, but that's <em>obviously</em> not objectionable.</p> Hi Spencer,
I agree with you.…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-09-25:4715978:Comment:1103712012-09-25T20:46:04.412ZTim Gierhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/TimGier
<p>Hi Spencer,</p>
<p>I agree with you. I have no idea what Francione's notion of "use" has to do with the lives of many other animals. For example, I don't in any way <em>use</em> squirrels who live where I do, but how I treat them surely must be something to consider.</p>
<p><br></br> <br></br> <cite>Spencer Lo said:…</cite></p>
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<p>Hi Spencer,</p>
<p>I agree with you. I have no idea what Francione's notion of "use" has to do with the lives of many other animals. For example, I don't in any way <em>use</em> squirrels who live where I do, but how I treat them surely must be something to consider.</p>
<p><br/> <br/> <cite>Spencer Lo said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/but-if-you-do-right-to-me-baby?page=1&commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A110568&x=1#4715978Comment110568"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Welfare reforms not only reduce suffering in the short term, but they raise public consciousness. The importance of consciousness raising can't be overstated, since it's crucial for abolitionist goals (and what the <em>ideal</em> <em>end</em> looks like is a very complicated matter, IMO). So I agree with Tim's hypothetical.</p>
<p><br/>I should also say that I'm skeptical of Francione's use/treatment distinction, often relevant to the debate over the appropriateness of welfare reforms. To me, treatment is what ultimately matters morally; animal <em>use</em> always implies some form of animal treatment, which is what we look at in deciding whether a practice is okay. A farmer who painlessly kills a chicken is <em>mistreating</em> the animal, and thus "painlessly killing" isn't automatically synonymous with "humane treatment."</p>
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</blockquote> Welfare reforms not only redu…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-09-25:4715978:Comment:1105682012-09-25T06:07:32.279ZSpencer Lohttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/SpencerLo
<p>Welfare reforms not only reduce suffering in the short term, but they raise public consciousness. The importance of consciousness raising can't be overstated, since it's crucial for abolitionist goals (and what the <em>ideal</em> <em>end</em> looks like is a very complicated matter, IMO). So I agree with Tim's hypothetical.</p>
<p><br></br>I should also say that I'm skeptical of Francione's use/treatment distinction, often relevant to the debate over the appropriateness of welfare reforms. To…</p>
<p>Welfare reforms not only reduce suffering in the short term, but they raise public consciousness. The importance of consciousness raising can't be overstated, since it's crucial for abolitionist goals (and what the <em>ideal</em> <em>end</em> looks like is a very complicated matter, IMO). So I agree with Tim's hypothetical.</p>
<p><br/>I should also say that I'm skeptical of Francione's use/treatment distinction, often relevant to the debate over the appropriateness of welfare reforms. To me, treatment is what ultimately matters morally; animal <em>use</em> always implies some form of animal treatment, which is what we look at in deciding whether a practice is okay. A farmer who painlessly kills a chicken is <em>mistreating</em> the animal, and thus "painlessly killing" isn't automatically synonymous with "humane treatment."</p> I have taken a screenshot, ju…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-09-25:4715978:Comment:1102542012-09-25T03:10:30.059ZCarolyn Baileyhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/CarolynBailey
<p>I have taken a screenshot, just in case you delete that comment! <br></br> <br></br> <cite>Tim Gier said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/but-if-you-do-right-to-me-baby?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A110250&xg_source=activity#4715978Comment110472"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Write this down somewhere please, Ms. Bailey, I agree with everything you've said. How likely is it that that will happen again? :)…</p>
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<p>I have taken a screenshot, just in case you delete that comment! <br/> <br/> <cite>Tim Gier said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/but-if-you-do-right-to-me-baby?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A110250&xg_source=activity#4715978Comment110472"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Write this down somewhere please, Ms. Bailey, I agree with everything you've said. How likely is it that that will happen again? :)</p>
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</blockquote> Cameron,
If it would take 25…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-09-25:4715978:Comment:1102502012-09-25T02:55:46.279ZTim Gierhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/TimGier
<p>Cameron,</p>
<p>If it would take 25 years to bring the industry in compliance with standards that make a marginal difference in the lives of other animals, that is no reason to not insist upon such standards. If anything, it is an indictment of the fact that such standards were not demanded in the past.</p>
<p>It's an interesting theory that says that in forcing an industry to adopt costly reforms - reforms that call into question the very foundation of the industry itself - that we thereby…</p>
<p>Cameron,</p>
<p>If it would take 25 years to bring the industry in compliance with standards that make a marginal difference in the lives of other animals, that is no reason to not insist upon such standards. If anything, it is an indictment of the fact that such standards were not demanded in the past.</p>
<p>It's an interesting theory that says that in forcing an industry to adopt costly reforms - reforms that call into question the very foundation of the industry itself - that we thereby strengthen that industry and make consumers more content with it. It's interesting, but I think it's bogus. But how can we know? That is, what things would have to happen in the world to verify whether that theory is true?</p>
<p>For example, we have a theory about the true nature of space/time - that theory purports to explain how things are and it purports to predict how things are going to be. As it happens, the predictions of that theory have been accurate to an amazing degree; the theory (Einstein's Special Relativity) appears to be a good one.</p>
<p>What predictions would this interesting theory about animal use make and can we test them to see whether the theory predicts accurately? If the theory doesn't make any predictions that we can test, or if the theory will accommodate any result no matter what, then it's not a theory at all - it's bogus. Obviously, I think the theory about how animal welfare reforms make matters worse for other animals isn't a good theory at all. When someone can provide me with some predictions that can be tested, then maybe I'll change my mind. Until then, I will just ignore the theory. </p>
<p><br/> <cite>Cameron B said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/but-if-you-do-right-to-me-baby#4715978Comment110361"><div><div class="xg_user_generated">Interesting reply Carolyn, except I are missing one important fact. The method of Mary's incarceration is compliant with the minimum international standards for prisoners, that are accepted worldwide.<br/> <br/> She has access to medical care, if required; she has a sufficient caloric intake of food to maintain an optimal body weight; and future offenders locked up for jay walking will be the benefit of an increased cell size.<br/> <br/> The increase in cell size came after a few groups and the correction industry agreed that they should increase from the current 8ft x 6ft to the new 8.75ft x 7ft. Unfortunately due to the enormous capital expenditure that is required to build new prisons, a 25 year transition period has been agreed to. Current prisons that are being built or on the drawing board won't have to comply with the new standard, so long as they are majority completed by the end of this year.<br/> <br/> There has also been a substantial improvement in the way that the execution is carried out. I days gone by, the condemned prisoner was shackled and dragged along a drab looking hallway to the place where they were executed. It was only due to trial and error by some industry leaders that it was discovered that if the prisoner was allowed to casually walk along a corridor with no sharp corners, and pretty pictures of clouds and green grass, and oceanscapes. That they arrived at the execution room blissfully ignorant of what was about to happen.<br/> <br/> With these vast improvements in prisoner treatment, compared to 5 or 10 years ago, industry is less likely to go along with further improvements. Maybe in another 5 or 10 years things may be different, just not in the present volatile economic climate,</div>
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</blockquote> Would you rather deny Mary th…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-09-25:4715978:Comment:1104732012-09-25T02:40:54.290ZCarolyn Baileyhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/CarolynBailey
<p>Would you rather deny Mary those small improvements, Cam? Do you think those small improvements matter to Mary? Would you deny Mary vegan food, or fight for her to receive vegan food? <br/><br/><span>If you are opposed to incremental changes in the way others are exploited, do you think we should just abolish all of the animal welfare standards that are currently in place?</span></p>
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<p>Would you rather deny Mary those small improvements, Cam? Do you think those small improvements matter to Mary? Would you deny Mary vegan food, or fight for her to receive vegan food? <br/><br/><span>If you are opposed to incremental changes in the way others are exploited, do you think we should just abolish all of the animal welfare standards that are currently in place?</span></p>
<p><span> </span> </p> Write this down somewhere ple…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-09-25:4715978:Comment:1104722012-09-25T02:40:12.936ZTim Gierhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/TimGier
<p>Write this down somewhere please, Ms. Bailey, I agree with everything you've said. How likely is it that that will happen again? :)</p>
<p><br></br> <cite>Carolyn Bailey said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/but-if-you-do-right-to-me-baby#4715978Comment110245"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I think that if Mary were to be executed, and this fact was not going to change, that, as Mary's advocates, we would be doing Mary a disservice if we were to claim…</p>
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<p>Write this down somewhere please, Ms. Bailey, I agree with everything you've said. How likely is it that that will happen again? :)</p>
<p><br/> <cite>Carolyn Bailey said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/but-if-you-do-right-to-me-baby#4715978Comment110245"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I think that if Mary were to be executed, and this fact was not going to change, that, as Mary's advocates, we would be doing Mary a disservice if we were to claim that the way in which she is treated whilst awaiting her execution simply didn't matter. <br/><br/>For example, if Mary were a vegan, would we be wrong to demand that Mary receive vegan meals whilst in prison? If we, as her advocates, could decide whether Mary were to be in a cell slightly larger than Mary's body, or a cell that allowed Mary to exercise and walk around, would the latter be the wrong thing to ask for, and would we claim that these factors didn't matter? <br/><br/>Why do we, as advocates demand that Walter Bond (for example) is treated better and receives vegan meals whilst being imprisoned, but are horrified at the thought of asking for more thoughtful treatment of individuals other than human who are innocently imprisoned? <br/><br/><br/></p>
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</blockquote> Your comment appears to suppo…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-09-25:4715978:Comment:1104712012-09-25T02:39:01.729ZTim Gierhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/TimGier
<p>Your comment appears to suppose, erroneously I believe, that there exists some possible path to the elimination of the use of animals for food. Now, I will admit that it is not logically impossible to eliminate all uses of animals as food (I can imagine that the world would go vegan), but as a practical matter, it is impossible. That is, whatever we can imagine, the actual conditions in the world will not change to the degree necessary to bring an end to the eating of other animals.…</p>
<p>Your comment appears to suppose, erroneously I believe, that there exists some possible path to the elimination of the use of animals for food. Now, I will admit that it is not logically impossible to eliminate all uses of animals as food (I can imagine that the world would go vegan), but as a practical matter, it is impossible. That is, whatever we can imagine, the actual conditions in the world will not change to the degree necessary to bring an end to the eating of other animals. Therefore, the choice isn't between eliminating animal agriculture on the one hand and doing something about the treatment of farmed animals on the other hand. To think that there is such a choice misunderstands the nature of the problem.<br/> <br/> <cite>Cameron B said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/but-if-you-do-right-to-me-baby#4715978Comment110358"><div><div class="xg_user_generated">Interesting analogy Tim, though I feel it couldn't be further off the mark if it came from animal agriculture itself.<br/> <br/> Your analogy only talks about treatment, and doesn't question demand.<br/> <br/> The fact that your individual who I shall call Mary for simplicity has been sentenced to execution says that society has demanded that that be the punishment for the crime that she committed.<br/> <br/> Lets say that a particular state creates the statute that those caught Jay Walking will be executed once found guilty of the offense. The civil liberties groups would jump up and down and create all sorts of ruckus educating the public as to how extreme this sentence is.<br/> <br/> I doubt very much that they would be interested in the 'comfort' of Mary confinement. Their sole goal is to prevent Mary's execution.<br/> <br/> This can only be achieved by the group mustering support from the same society who demanded that execution be the punishment for the crime committed.<br/> <br/> If the group says that whilst we don't want you to execute Mary or others for Jay Walking, it is ok, just so long as you make them comfortable, society won't change the demand for this punishment.</div>
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</blockquote> I propose that only people wh…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-09-25:4715978:Comment:1103622012-09-25T02:33:20.543ZTim Gierhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/TimGier
<p>I propose that only people who actually abolish something call themselves abolitionists. All others, who advocate for "abolition" while achieving nothing, ought to call themselves something else. I suggest "dreamers".<br></br> <br></br> <cite>Kath Worsfold said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/but-if-you-do-right-to-me-baby#4715978Comment110543"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I struggle with this all the time too, Tim. It seems like this is what the…</p>
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<p>I propose that only people who actually abolish something call themselves abolitionists. All others, who advocate for "abolition" while achieving nothing, ought to call themselves something else. I suggest "dreamers".<br/> <br/> <cite>Kath Worsfold said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/but-if-you-do-right-to-me-baby#4715978Comment110543"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I struggle with this all the time too, Tim. It seems like this is what the Abolitionists want us to do. I don't know what the answer is. I have seen Abolitionists say that they will not try to help any animals alive today, but will put all their limited energies where it will do the most good.</p>
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