Orangutans as Prostitutes - Animal Rights Zone2024-03-28T13:06:08Zhttp://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/orangutans-as-prostitutes?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A89989&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThat's interesting about that…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-04-08:4715978:Comment:899932012-04-08T04:29:48.266ZBilly Lhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/BillyLovci
<p>That's interesting about that reality show.<br></br><br></br>Do you have any insight in regard to the main influence of these attitudes? What I mean is that it is plain as day that killing is not in any way humane or beneficial to anyone (putting aside the other environmental and health claims). I'm guessing for the majority of people, it would be the absence of certain key information, and carefully selected, widely promoted and reinforced ideas of what is acceptable, but maybe pointing a finger at…</p>
<p>That's interesting about that reality show.<br/><br/>Do you have any insight in regard to the main influence of these attitudes? What I mean is that it is plain as day that killing is not in any way humane or beneficial to anyone (putting aside the other environmental and health claims). I'm guessing for the majority of people, it would be the absence of certain key information, and carefully selected, widely promoted and reinforced ideas of what is acceptable, but maybe pointing a finger at one source is a bit simplistic. It makes me wonder what, as <a href="http://www.coexisting.co.nz" target="_blank">Jordan Wyatt</a> might say, "muhmillions" of dollars in public awareness campaigning might accomplish, as compared let's say, to the equally effective but smaller scale efforts of tabling and leafleting. I suppose you might see the situation as needing to build numbers of ethical vegans before proceeding with such an undertaking.<br/> <br/> <cite>Roger Yates said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/orangutans-as-prostitutes?xg_source=activity&id=4715978%3ATopic%3A90023&page=1#4715978Comment89899"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>They did try to repeat Stanford as a "reality TV" sort of thing in recent years. It did not work the second time. The "cons" just laughed at the "screws" trying to be heavy.</p>
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<p>I think the suggestion that most people do not object to violence towards other animals is rather complex. For example, with most people subscribing to the tenets of animal welfarism, they buy into the myth that non-cruel use can be a reality. So, they also do not agree with being violent to other animals - they just think (rather insanely we vegans may think) that eating them and being non-violent to them are consistent ideas!<br/> <br/> <cite>Billy Lovci said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/orangutans-as-prostitutes?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A90033&xg_source=activity#4715978Comment89896"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Are most of us vegans because we are shocked by what we learn about how animals are treated, and oppose it? I wonder if that's the number 1 reason. I also wonder if there is any way to understand, as Carolyn mentions, how humans get to the point that they become involved in this type of thing. We have some clues with the Stanford Prison Experiment, but on a gut level, I don't know if vegans can in any way relate enough to the majority, to see the world as the majority sees it. Most of us have omnivorous backgrounds, but all of us object to violence against animals; most people don't. To take it a step further, my theory is that overpowering another being, either by psychological, physical, or fatal means is some kind of easily repeatable, temporary release from social oppression of one sort or another.</p>
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</blockquote> i think you may be right kerr…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-04-08:4715978:Comment:901452012-04-08T03:59:20.038Zsharon tupperhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/sharontupper
<p>i think you may be right kerry... rape is used as a weapon, to control, to brutalize - rape is not about sex, never has been... rape is about power over the powerless, and womyn in this patriarchal society have grown up with that threat, that fear, so empathy with females of all species is heightened... the brutality of rape is something womyn really understand... <br></br> <br></br> <cite>Kerry Baker said:…</cite></p>
<p>i think you may be right kerry... rape is used as a weapon, to control, to brutalize - rape is not about sex, never has been... rape is about power over the powerless, and womyn in this patriarchal society have grown up with that threat, that fear, so empathy with females of all species is heightened... the brutality of rape is something womyn really understand... <br/> <br/> <cite>Kerry Baker said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/orangutans-as-prostitutes?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A90204&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4715978Comment90204"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Perhaps I haven't been watching other forums but his issue is from what I've seen relatively recent. I am making an assumption that the animals used in these brothels are almost exclusively female, which is about sexism among other things. Sex in many respects remains a taboo subject, mostly confined to the scandal pages. </p>
<p>The notions we have of cruelty are subjective and although wishing to stamp out all cruelty we tend to place these things on a scale. How we categorise these things is largely one of ability to empathise, in turn based on experience. In Australia there is still a great deal of discrimination towards women, you only have to look at the military and sporting field for attitudes towards females. I suspect that there is still some sort of view that women secretly enjoy rape, because the sex act itself is pleasurable and pain is in intercourse is something that many men would have problems trying to comprehend. </p>
<p>This is one form of animal torture that I suspect might have to be fought on a feminist platform.</p>
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</blockquote> Perhaps I haven't been watchi…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-04-08:4715978:Comment:902042012-04-08T03:00:27.945ZKerry Bakerhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/KerryBaker
<p>Perhaps I haven't been watching other forums but his issue is from what I've seen relatively recent. I am making an assumption that the animals used in these brothels are almost exclusively female, which is about sexism among other things. Sex in many respects remains a taboo subject, mostly confined to the scandal pages. </p>
<p>The notions we have of cruelty are subjective and although wishing to stamp out all cruelty we tend to place these things on a scale. How we categorise these…</p>
<p>Perhaps I haven't been watching other forums but his issue is from what I've seen relatively recent. I am making an assumption that the animals used in these brothels are almost exclusively female, which is about sexism among other things. Sex in many respects remains a taboo subject, mostly confined to the scandal pages. </p>
<p>The notions we have of cruelty are subjective and although wishing to stamp out all cruelty we tend to place these things on a scale. How we categorise these things is largely one of ability to empathise, in turn based on experience. In Australia there is still a great deal of discrimination towards women, you only have to look at the military and sporting field for attitudes towards females. I suspect that there is still some sort of view that women secretly enjoy rape, because the sex act itself is pleasurable and pain is in intercourse is something that many men would have problems trying to comprehend. </p>
<p>This is one form of animal torture that I suspect might have to be fought on a feminist platform.</p> sadly it doesn’t shock me tha…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-04-08:4715978:Comment:901402012-04-08T02:39:02.355Zsharon tupperhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/sharontupper
<p>sadly it doesn’t shock me that this abuse occurs – humans have proven themselves imaginative and adept at torture and abuse - but that doesn’t mean to say i shouldn’t be outraged… as a womon, i abhor the rape of any female, and one of the most frightening things to me is that now some are attempting to have inter-species rape normalized by naming it “<a href="http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art18210.asp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">a lifestyle choice</a>”… rape is rape, and we should…</p>
<p>sadly it doesn’t shock me that this abuse occurs – humans have proven themselves imaginative and adept at torture and abuse - but that doesn’t mean to say i shouldn’t be outraged… as a womon, i abhor the rape of any female, and one of the most frightening things to me is that now some are attempting to have inter-species rape normalized by naming it “<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art18210.asp" target="_blank">a lifestyle choice</a>”… rape is rape, and we should all be outraged – otherwise we’re in danger of this becoming an even more widespread, perhaps even acceptable, atrocity…</p> well,my position would be tha…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-04-08:4715978:Comment:902032012-04-08T01:50:53.848ZTina Cubberleyhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/TinaCubberley
<p>well,my position would be that enslaving other creatures for any purpose is impossible to justify rationaly -somthing that the vast majority of those complisit in animal torture an murder do not even attemt .the only defense that is usualy offered is that these violent practises are as old as human civilisation. this also aplies to the sexual exploitation of others,both human an nonhuman.</p>
<p>i see them all as being part of the same problem -speciesism. obviously ther is more direct…</p>
<p>well,my position would be that enslaving other creatures for any purpose is impossible to justify rationaly -somthing that the vast majority of those complisit in animal torture an murder do not even attemt .the only defense that is usualy offered is that these violent practises are as old as human civilisation. this also aplies to the sexual exploitation of others,both human an nonhuman.</p>
<p>i see them all as being part of the same problem -speciesism. obviously ther is more direct involvment of the individual in the case of the rape of another ,than that of a consumer buying bottled milk or neatly wrapped flesh,sinse in the later case the violense is "disguised" to some extent. those paying for it to continue do not hav to physicaly face the impact of there choises.but i dont see one kind of use as going "beyond" another .that one is not endorsed by society at large only emphasises this societys hypocritical double standards ,rather than showing one atrocity to be "worse" than another .</p>
<p>to each individual who is the victim of any violent rights violation,there suffering is all they know. to them ,comparison is irelevant .<br/> <cite>Kerry Baker said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/orangutans-as-prostitutes?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A89899&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4715978Comment89990"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Hi Tina. That's not what I said. I agree that all cruelty has to be stopped as much as is possible. The issue of using an animal for sex however does cross over into a different type of cruelty, whether that be in sex trade DVD's in the form of crush movies or in actual rape. It goes beyond the usual reasons for consumption of animals, for dietary requirements primarily, which has I agree engendered a whole torture industry in itself. Using another for non-consensual sex, no matter if it is the teenage in Rogers post or the orangutan, goes outside of anything that can have some sort of rational reasoning behind it.<br/> <br/> <cite>Tina Cubberley said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/orangutans-as-prostitutes?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A90033&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4715978Comment90032"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>it does indeed hav to be stopped -but not in isolation from the wider problem of speciesism in human society.taking this issue -or any single issue -out of the wider context of animal use confuses our message by implying that other rights violations are less of a moral problem. so attacking this issue as though it were unusualy horrific is counter productiv to the movement - to a certain extent,it lets those guilty of other kinds of exploitation off the hook .</p>
<p><cite>Kerry Baker said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/orangutans-as-prostitutes?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A89890&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4715978Comment89893"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Historically, and currently, rape has been used as an ultimate degradation. It goes on in slaughterhouses prior to the animal being butchered. It is used to destroy cultures and human beings, male and female. While I am aware of the human sex traffic slaves trade, most brothels use willing humans as an income, presumably people who have a right to choose what clients can and can't do to them. The use of animals as sex objects is I suspect an economic one, implying that they can be replaced easily so that those with 'special' fetishist tastes can be satisfied. We have on this site seen a number of posts indicating that animals feel and experience just as we do, and I have no doubt that an animal repeatedly raped will bear the physical and psychological scars through whatever life they may have left. These animals are kept for years, and who knows how many clients they service in that time. I totally agree it is yet one more example of how disgusting human animals are in the treatment of others. But it equally has to be stopped.</p>
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</blockquote> I suspect there isn't all tha…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-04-08:4715978:Comment:901392012-04-08T01:47:40.145ZKerry Bakerhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/KerryBaker
<p>I suspect there isn't all that much difference between rape and mutilation. People who feel powerless and underprivileged in some way will frequently look for the scapegoat that they can in turn humiliate and abuse. The abuse that goes on in slaughterhouses is I think a psychological mechanism for those to justify the killing of animals who they have to look in the eyes before they are butchered. People who became torturers in Greece during the military junta there were chosen because…</p>
<p>I suspect there isn't all that much difference between rape and mutilation. People who feel powerless and underprivileged in some way will frequently look for the scapegoat that they can in turn humiliate and abuse. The abuse that goes on in slaughterhouses is I think a psychological mechanism for those to justify the killing of animals who they have to look in the eyes before they are butchered. People who became torturers in Greece during the military junta there were chosen because they were average to low intelligence without families and friends, and they were humiliated and broken to make them able to torture in turn. Absolutely it's a complex issue without a single or easy solution.</p> Hi Tina. That's not what I s…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-04-08:4715978:Comment:899902012-04-08T01:06:18.651ZKerry Bakerhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/KerryBaker
<p>Hi Tina. That's not what I said. I agree that all cruelty has to be stopped as much as is possible. The issue of using an animal for sex however does cross over into a different type of cruelty, whether that be in sex trade DVD's in the form of crush movies or in actual rape. It goes beyond the usual reasons for consumption of animals, for dietary requirements primarily, which has I agree engendered a whole torture industry in itself. Using another for non-consensual sex, no matter if…</p>
<p>Hi Tina. That's not what I said. I agree that all cruelty has to be stopped as much as is possible. The issue of using an animal for sex however does cross over into a different type of cruelty, whether that be in sex trade DVD's in the form of crush movies or in actual rape. It goes beyond the usual reasons for consumption of animals, for dietary requirements primarily, which has I agree engendered a whole torture industry in itself. Using another for non-consensual sex, no matter if it is the teenage in Rogers post or the orangutan, goes outside of anything that can have some sort of rational reasoning behind it.<br/> <br/> <cite>Tina Cubberley said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/orangutans-as-prostitutes?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A90033&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4715978Comment90032"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>it does indeed hav to be stopped -but not in isolation from the wider problem of speciesism in human society.taking this issue -or any single issue -out of the wider context of animal use confuses our message by implying that other rights violations are less of a moral problem. so attacking this issue as though it were unusualy horrific is counter productiv to the movement - to a certain extent,it lets those guilty of other kinds of exploitation off the hook .</p>
<p><cite>Kerry Baker said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/orangutans-as-prostitutes?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A89890&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4715978Comment89893"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Historically, and currently, rape has been used as an ultimate degradation. It goes on in slaughterhouses prior to the animal being butchered. It is used to destroy cultures and human beings, male and female. While I am aware of the human sex traffic slaves trade, most brothels use willing humans as an income, presumably people who have a right to choose what clients can and can't do to them. The use of animals as sex objects is I suspect an economic one, implying that they can be replaced easily so that those with 'special' fetishist tastes can be satisfied. We have on this site seen a number of posts indicating that animals feel and experience just as we do, and I have no doubt that an animal repeatedly raped will bear the physical and psychological scars through whatever life they may have left. These animals are kept for years, and who knows how many clients they service in that time. I totally agree it is yet one more example of how disgusting human animals are in the treatment of others. But it equally has to be stopped.</p>
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</blockquote> I agree, Billy! Billy Lovci…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-04-08:4715978:Comment:900332012-04-08T00:55:30.815ZCarolyn Baileyhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/CarolynBailey
<p>I agree, Billy! <br></br> <br></br> <cite>Billy Lovci said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/orangutans-as-prostitutes#4715978Comment89896"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Are most of us vegans because we are shocked by what we learn about how animals are treated, and oppose it? I wonder if that's the number 1 reason. I also wonder if there is any way to understand, as Carolyn mentions, how humans get to the point that they become involved in this type of…</p>
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<p>I agree, Billy! <br/> <br/> <cite>Billy Lovci said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/orangutans-as-prostitutes#4715978Comment89896"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Are most of us vegans because we are shocked by what we learn about how animals are treated, and oppose it? I wonder if that's the number 1 reason. I also wonder if there is any way to understand, as Carolyn mentions, how humans get to the point that they become involved in this type of thing. We have some clues with the Stanford Prison Experiment, but on a gut level, I don't know if vegans can in any way relate enough to the majority, to see the world as the majority sees it. Most of us have omnivorous backgrounds, but all of us object to violence against animals; most people don't. To take it a step further, my theory is that overpowering another being, either by psychological, physical, or fatal means is some kind of easily repeatable, temporary release from social oppression of one sort or another.</p>
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</blockquote> it does indeed hav to be stop…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-04-08:4715978:Comment:900322012-04-08T00:54:33.745ZTina Cubberleyhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/TinaCubberley
<p>it does indeed hav to be stopped -but not in isolation from the wider problem of speciesism in human society.taking this issue -or any single issue -out of the wider context of animal use confuses our message by implying that other rights violations are less of a moral problem. so attacking this issue as though it were unusualy horrific is counter productiv to the movement - to a certain extent,it lets those guilty of other kinds of exploitation off the hook .</p>
<p><cite>Kerry Baker…</cite></p>
<p>it does indeed hav to be stopped -but not in isolation from the wider problem of speciesism in human society.taking this issue -or any single issue -out of the wider context of animal use confuses our message by implying that other rights violations are less of a moral problem. so attacking this issue as though it were unusualy horrific is counter productiv to the movement - to a certain extent,it lets those guilty of other kinds of exploitation off the hook .</p>
<p><cite>Kerry Baker said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/orangutans-as-prostitutes?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A89890&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4715978Comment89893"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Historically, and currently, rape has been used as an ultimate degradation. It goes on in slaughterhouses prior to the animal being butchered. It is used to destroy cultures and human beings, male and female. While I am aware of the human sex traffic slaves trade, most brothels use willing humans as an income, presumably people who have a right to choose what clients can and can't do to them. The use of animals as sex objects is I suspect an economic one, implying that they can be replaced easily so that those with 'special' fetishist tastes can be satisfied. We have on this site seen a number of posts indicating that animals feel and experience just as we do, and I have no doubt that an animal repeatedly raped will bear the physical and psychological scars through whatever life they may have left. These animals are kept for years, and who knows how many clients they service in that time. I totally agree it is yet one more example of how disgusting human animals are in the treatment of others. But it equally has to be stopped.</p>
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</blockquote> I don't believe a person who…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-04-08:4715978:Comment:900312012-04-08T00:54:04.734ZCarolyn Baileyhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/CarolynBailey
<p>I don't believe a person who chooses to eat other individuals, something that is completely socially acceptable, has arrived at his decision based on similar experiences as that of a person who chooses to pay to have sex with another individual who is tied down and quite likely struggling and/or screaming to escape. Whether that individual be an orangutan or a human or other animal. </p>
<p>My comment was not suggesting I felt it worse, better or different with the victim being an orangutan.…</p>
<p>I don't believe a person who chooses to eat other individuals, something that is completely socially acceptable, has arrived at his decision based on similar experiences as that of a person who chooses to pay to have sex with another individual who is tied down and quite likely struggling and/or screaming to escape. Whether that individual be an orangutan or a human or other animal. </p>
<p>My comment was not suggesting I felt it worse, better or different with the victim being an orangutan. I continue to wonder how a person can become the type of person to find such a thing gratifying. </p>
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