Vegan Feud - Animal rights activists would accomplish a lot more if they stopped attacking the Humane Society. ~ James McWilliams - Animal Rights Zone2024-03-29T13:54:06Zhttp://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/vegan-feud-animal-rights-activists-would-accomplish-a-lot-more-if?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A110375&feed=yes&xn_auth=noIn my view, we cannot cultiva…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-10-03:4715978:Comment:1113222012-10-03T00:31:20.120ZEllie Maldonadohttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/EllieMaldonado
<div><p>In my view, we cannot cultivate a vegan paradigm until we change our focus from factory farms to the inherent cruelty of farming, and we educate the public about the full range of nonhuman experience -- as does this poster from Peaceful Prairie, Milk Comes From a Grieving Mother:…</p>
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<div><p>In my view, we cannot cultivate a vegan paradigm until we change our focus from factory farms to the inherent cruelty of farming, and we educate the public about the full range of nonhuman experience -- as does this poster from Peaceful Prairie, Milk Comes From a Grieving Mother: <a title="http://www.peacefulprairie.org/outreach/grievingMother.html" href="http://www.peacefulprairie.org/outreach/grievingMother.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.peacefulprairie.org/outreach/grievingMother.html</a> -- and this video from Humane Myth/Tribe of Heart of a Mother Hen and Baby Chick: <a title="http://www.humanemyth.org/mediabase/1067.htm" href="http://www.humanemyth.org/mediabase/1067.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.humanemyth.org/mediabase/1067.htm</a></p>
<p>As long as activists focus on factory farms, the industry and its animal "welfare" allies can mislead consumers by claiming to offer a "humane" alternative. And the result, as Wendy said, is more animals will be slaughtered. Professor Francione quotes an HSUS report in which shows a ban on gestation crates would increase in pig reproduction: <a title="http://www.cupblog.org/?p=7863" href="http://www.cupblog.org/?p=7863" rel="nofollow">http://www.cupblog.org/?p=7863</a>: "...... <em>“Sow productivity is higher in group housing than in individual crates, as a result of reduced rates of injury and disease, earlier first estrus, faster return to estrus after delivery, lower incidence of stillbirths, and shorter farrowing times” and “[c]onversion from gestation crates to group housing . . . marginally reduces production costs and increases productivity......": </em> ( <a title="http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/media/pdf/econ_gestation.pdf" href="http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/media/pdf/econ_gestation.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/media/pdf/econ_gestation.pdf</a> )</p>
<p>Also see: <em>Hogwash! Or, How Animal Advocates Enable Corporate Spin</em> by Lee Hall: <a title="http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/08/hogwash-or-how-animal-advocates-enable-corporate-spin/" href="http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/08/hogwash-or-how-animal-advocates-enable-corporate-spin/" rel="nofollow">http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/08/hogwash-or-how-animal-advocates-e...</a></p>
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<p><em>Vegetarian Butchers/ Something Almost Primal</em> by Angel Flinn: <a title="http://gentleworld.org/something-almost-primal/" href="http://gentleworld.org/something-almost-primal/" rel="nofollow">http://gentleworld.org/something-almost-primal/</a></p>
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<div class="echo-item-body echo-primaryColor"><em>Why Vegetarians Are Eating Meat</em>: <a title="http://www.humanemyth.org/mediabase/1057.htm" href="http://www.humanemyth.org/mediabase/1057.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.humanemyth.org/mediabase/1057.htm</a></div>
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<div class="echo-item-body echo-primaryColor"><em>Free Range' Eggs, Can You Tell the Difference?:</em> <a title="http://www.peacefulprairie.org/freerange1.html#freerange" href="http://www.peacefulprairie.org/freerange1.html#freerange" rel="nofollow">http://www.peacefulprairie.org/freerange1.html#freerange</a></div>
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<div class="echo-item-body echo-primaryColor"><em>Veal to Love, Without the Guilt</em>: <a title="http://www.humanemyth.org/mediabase/1000.htm" href="http://www.humanemyth.org/mediabase/1000.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.humanemyth.org/mediabase/1000.htm</a></div>
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<div class="echo-item-body echo-primaryColor"><em>The Faces of Free Range:</em> <a title="http://www.humanemyth.org/mediabase/1049.htm" href="http://www.humanemyth.org/mediabase/1049.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.humanemyth.org/mediabase/1049.htm</a></div>
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<p>Clearly, these reforms do little to nothing to improve the lives of farmed animals. And no matter how much space they are allowed, farmed animals will continue to be mutilated to prevent injuries from aggression (which would result in a decrease in profit): debeaking, which the "humane" industry calls "beak trimming"; dehorning, which the "humane" industry calls it "debudding"; castration; teeth filing; and toe-clipping. Male chicks and "trash infants" will continue to be killed. Females will continue to be subjected to forced pregnancies. Mothers will continue to be separated from their babies, which is emotionally painful for both. And all will be subjected to a violent death.</p>
<p><strong>So for the sake of nonhuman animals, can we please stop focusing on factory farms?</strong></p>
</div> Hi Spencer. I am somewhat sce…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-10-01:4715978:Comment:1110512012-10-01T22:51:54.783ZKerry Bakerhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/KerryBaker
<p>Hi Spencer. I am somewhat sceptical about the effectiveness of HSUS and PETA campaigns for no other reason that they don't really seem to be getting out to mainstream consumers. I think those who will go to their sites will be already converted or about to be.</p>
<p>I also think that those who are advocating 'happy meat' are entirely missing the point. The act of killing an animal is a horrendous thing. If that animal has been raised in a factory farm makes it all the more horrendous. But…</p>
<p>Hi Spencer. I am somewhat sceptical about the effectiveness of HSUS and PETA campaigns for no other reason that they don't really seem to be getting out to mainstream consumers. I think those who will go to their sites will be already converted or about to be.</p>
<p>I also think that those who are advocating 'happy meat' are entirely missing the point. The act of killing an animal is a horrendous thing. If that animal has been raised in a factory farm makes it all the more horrendous. But all animals are basically slaughtered in the same facilities, and the road to getting there has been slavery.</p>
<p>I have spoken to people who are highly educated who have the most bizarre notions about what happens to animals. One woman was insistent that organic meat comes from animals who are killed away from other animals so they don't have the experience of seeing slaughtered animals before them. That is just obviously not the truth, they all end up the same. But I do suggest that her notions of why she buys organic meat stem from this happy meat myth.</p>
<p>The consumption of meat by humans is not a dietary necessity, it is simply sensory gratification. I think that organisations like HSUS and RSPCA have effectively been co-opted by governments to do their work for them. That is to make sure farmers are meeting regulatory standards. It then becomes irrelevant that those standards are inherently cruelty as the focus becomes compliance not compassion.</p> Hi Kerry. Your mention of Ash…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-10-01:4715978:Comment:1107962012-10-01T15:40:46.494ZSpencer Lohttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/SpencerLo
<p>Hi Kerry. Your mention of Ashoka stirred up memories of lectures given by my former prof (Buddhist philosopher) about him. And I agree we do owe animals the same thing regarding the exposure of exploitation -- but that may be one area where groups like PETA and HSUS do a lot of good. If the public wants to learn about factory-farming conditions, those groups offer plenty of eye-opening information. As for HSUS' support of "humane meat," I'm currently of two minds about that: (1) it's wrong…</p>
<p>Hi Kerry. Your mention of Ashoka stirred up memories of lectures given by my former prof (Buddhist philosopher) about him. And I agree we do owe animals the same thing regarding the exposure of exploitation -- but that may be one area where groups like PETA and HSUS do a lot of good. If the public wants to learn about factory-farming conditions, those groups offer plenty of eye-opening information. As for HSUS' support of "humane meat," I'm currently of two minds about that: (1) it's wrong and should be condemned, and (2) the perceived distinction between "humane" and "non-humane" may raise a lot of public consciousness, more so than if there were no such perceived distinction. I think it's true that for those who believe it's wrong to kill truly happily raised animals, most arrive at that conclusion only after they've recognized the inherent cruelties of factory-farming</p> Hi Spencer,
I support disabil…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-10-01:4715978:Comment:1110492012-10-01T15:35:58.125ZEllie Maldonadohttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/EllieMaldonado
<p>Hi Spencer,</p>
<p>I support disability rights and completely agree that a pregnant woman is in no way obligated to abort a fetus who will be always be dependent, but I don't think that's the same as knowingly breeding a woman with a child who will dependent for the rest of his/her life. <br></br> <br></br> <cite>Spencer Lo said:…</cite></p>
<p>Hi Spencer,</p>
<p>I support disability rights and completely agree that a pregnant woman is in no way obligated to abort a fetus who will be always be dependent, but I don't think that's the same as knowingly breeding a woman with a child who will dependent for the rest of his/her life. <br/> <br/> <cite>Spencer Lo said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/vegan-feud-animal-rights-activists-would-accomplish-a-lot-more-if?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A111048&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4715978Comment111048"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Hi Ellie,</p>
<p>I think that's an interesting question -- I'm inclined to say 'yes, that's okay' at this point. After all, if a pregnant woman discovers that her resulting child will be severely mentally disabled -- and therefore a life-long dependent -- I don't think she's <em>obligated</em> to get an abortion. But if we think bringing life-long dependent beings into existence is wrong, then we would have to say that she is obligated to get an abortion.</p>
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</blockquote> Thanks, Spencer. I agree wit…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-10-01:4715978:Comment:1111182012-10-01T15:28:22.569ZEllie Maldonadohttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/EllieMaldonado
<p>Thanks, Spencer. I agree with Francione on this. <br></br> <br></br> <cite>Spencer Lo said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/vegan-feud-animal-rights-activists-would-accomplish-a-lot-more-if?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A110795&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4715978Comment110795"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Francione's latest essay:…</p>
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<p>Thanks, Spencer. I agree with Francione on this. <br/> <br/> <cite>Spencer Lo said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/vegan-feud-animal-rights-activists-would-accomplish-a-lot-more-if?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A110795&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4715978Comment110795"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Francione's latest essay: <a href="http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/animal-rights-marginalized-by-the-animal-movement/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/animal-rights-marginalized-by-t...</a></p>
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</blockquote> Hi Ellie,
I think that's an i…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-10-01:4715978:Comment:1110482012-10-01T15:14:11.177ZSpencer Lohttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/SpencerLo
<p>Hi Ellie,</p>
<p>I think that's an interesting question -- I'm inclined to say 'yes, that's okay' at this point. After all, if a pregnant woman discovers that her resulting child will be severely mentally disabled -- and therefore a life-long dependent -- I don't think she's <em>obligated</em> to get an abortion. But if we think bringing life-long dependent beings into existence is wrong, then we would have to say that she is obligated to get an abortion.</p>
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<p>Hi Ellie,</p>
<p>I think that's an interesting question -- I'm inclined to say 'yes, that's okay' at this point. After all, if a pregnant woman discovers that her resulting child will be severely mentally disabled -- and therefore a life-long dependent -- I don't think she's <em>obligated</em> to get an abortion. But if we think bringing life-long dependent beings into existence is wrong, then we would have to say that she is obligated to get an abortion.</p>
<p></p> Francione's latest essay: htt…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-10-01:4715978:Comment:1107952012-10-01T15:01:55.428ZSpencer Lohttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/SpencerLo
<p>Francione's latest essay: <a href="http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/animal-rights-marginalized-by-the-animal-movement/" target="_blank">http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/animal-rights-marginalized-by-the-animal-movement/</a></p>
<p>Francione's latest essay: <a href="http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/animal-rights-marginalized-by-the-animal-movement/" target="_blank">http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/animal-rights-marginalized-by-the-animal-movement/</a></p> I'm sure you're right about t…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-10-01:4715978:Comment:1111162012-10-01T12:47:24.206ZEllie Maldonadohttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/EllieMaldonado
<p>I'm sure you're right about the locavore movement. Imo, the main priority of HSUS is its bank account. It's good at getting donations, but it doesn't deliver as it promises -- Hurricane Katrina and other HSUS "rescues" come to mind. I didn't read McWilliams' book, and after Vegan Feud, I don't intend to.</p>
<p><br></br> <cite>Wendy Kobylarz said:…</cite></p>
<p>I'm sure you're right about the locavore movement. Imo, the main priority of HSUS is its bank account. It's good at getting donations, but it doesn't deliver as it promises -- Hurricane Katrina and other HSUS "rescues" come to mind. I didn't read McWilliams' book, and after Vegan Feud, I don't intend to.</p>
<p><br/> <cite>Wendy Kobylarz said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/vegan-feud-animal-rights-activists-would-accomplish-a-lot-more-if?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A110892&xg_source=msg_com_forumhttp%3A%2F%2Farzone.ning.com%2Fforum%2Ftopics%2Fvegan-feud-animal-rights-activists-would-accomplish-a-lot-more-if%3FcommentId%3D4715978%3AComment%3A110892&xg_source=msg_com_forumhttp%3A%2F%2Farzone.ning.com%2Fforum%2Ftopics%2Fvegan-feud-animal-rights-activists-would-accomplish-a-lot-more-if%3FcommentId%3D4715978%3AComment%3A110892&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4715978Comment111045"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Good point about economics; it seems to me that the entire locavore movement is significantly based on affluence as well, something McWilliams ignores in his book. It seems to fit right in with HSUS, too, because they need those donations to keep their jobs.<br/> <br/> <cite>Ellie Maldonado said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/vegan-feud-animal-rights-activists-would-accomplish-a-lot-more-if?xg_source=msg_com_forum&id=4715978%3ATopic%3A109475&page=3#4715978Comment111028"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Hi Spencer,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I don't think HSUS dislikes poor people; I think it takes advantange of their insignificant status to promote campaigns that won't carry much oppositional weight. Have you read "The Animal Estate"? </p>
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<p>HSUS is very careful not to alienate wealthy supporters, and as long as they want to eat meat, it will not speak against it. HSUS also condoned the hunting of one species of animal in order to save another. Again, I'll see if I can find the link -- this happened a long time ago. </p>
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</blockquote> Yes, it's a pleasure. Thank…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-10-01:4715978:Comment:1109932012-10-01T12:34:42.803ZEllie Maldonadohttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/EllieMaldonado
<p>Yes, it's a pleasure. Thank you too. <br></br> <br></br> <cite>Kerry Baker said:…</cite></p>
<p>Yes, it's a pleasure. Thank you too. <br/> <br/> <cite>Kerry Baker said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/vegan-feud-animal-rights-activists-would-accomplish-a-lot-more-if?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A110892&xg_source=msg_com_forumhttp%3A%2F%2Farzone.ning.com%2Fforum%2Ftopics%2Fvegan-feud-animal-rights-activists-would-accomplish-a-lot-more-if%3FcommentId%3D4715978%3AComment%3A110892&xg_source=msg_com_forumhttp%3A%2F%2Farzone.ning.com%2Fforum%2Ftopics%2Fvegan-feud-animal-rights-activists-would-accomplish-a-lot-more-if%3FcommentId%3D4715978%3AComment%3A110892&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4715978Comment110890"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p></p>
<p>Thanks for conducting a civilised discussion here everyone. (-:</p>
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</blockquote> Hi Spencer,
Would we delibera…tag:arzone.ning.com,2012-10-01:4715978:Comment:1107922012-10-01T12:29:33.705ZEllie Maldonadohttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/EllieMaldonado
<p>Hi Spencer,</p>
<p>Would we deliberately breed humans who could never be autonomous, even if it were possible to guarantee them full rights and loving care? To breed individuals who will always be dependent and forced to submit to the wishes of others seems wrong to me. </p>
<p>Also, to guarantee dogs full rights would require huge amounts of money for their daily needs and medical care that many people aren't even willing to spend on humans. So I think the question posed to Francione was…</p>
<p>Hi Spencer,</p>
<p>Would we deliberately breed humans who could never be autonomous, even if it were possible to guarantee them full rights and loving care? To breed individuals who will always be dependent and forced to submit to the wishes of others seems wrong to me. </p>
<p>Also, to guarantee dogs full rights would require huge amounts of money for their daily needs and medical care that many people aren't even willing to spend on humans. So I think the question posed to Francione was very unrealistic.</p>
<p>I would not oppose HSUS and similar groups if they didn't condone and even encourage animal consumption -- but they do indeed promote "humane" products and methods that inflict suffering and death on millions of animals; and that's something I can't overlook. </p>
<p><br/> <br/> <cite>Spencer Lo said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://arzone.ning.com/forum/topics/vegan-feud-animal-rights-activists-would-accomplish-a-lot-more-if?commentId=4715978%3AComment%3A110892&xg_source=msg_com_forumhttp%3A%2F%2Farzone.ning.com%2Fforum%2Ftopics%2Fvegan-feud-animal-rights-activists-would-accomplish-a-lot-more-if%3FcommentId%3D4715978%3AComment%3A110892&xg_source=msg_com_forumhttp%3A%2F%2Farzone.ning.com%2Fforum%2Ftopics%2Fvegan-feud-animal-rights-activists-would-accomplish-a-lot-more-if%3FcommentId%3D4715978%3AComment%3A110892&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4715978Comment110891"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Hi Ellie. I actually wrote about Francione's position on domestication over at Animal Blawg ("Is a Pet-free World Morally Required?"); his view is a bit more radical than what you describe, because he would oppose domestication <em>even if</em> dogs have full legal rights <em>and</em> loving homes for them could be guaranteed (IMO, he offers very weak arguments for this position, whereas David Benatar makes a more compelling case). But I agree that currently, we shouldn't breed anymore pets given the problems you mention. Thanks for those links!</p>
<p>My larger point was about areas of common ground between abolitionists and "animal welfare" organizations. To me, rather than dismiss organizations because of labels like "animal welfare" or "animal protection," I prefer to look at what they do issue by issue. IMO, it's possible to take an abolitionist stance on one activity but not on another, and recognizing those nuances is important.</p>
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