Comments - Ahimsa ~ Tim Gier - Animal Rights Zone2024-03-28T13:17:57Zhttp://arzone.ning.com/profiles/comment/feed?attachedTo=4715978%3ABlogPost%3A21202&xn_auth=noThis article was brought to m…tag:arzone.ning.com,2017-08-06:4715978:Comment:1642212017-08-06T23:09:33.069ZAnimal Rights Zonehttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/admin
<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/3132491311?profile=original" target="_self"><img class="align-right" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/3132491311?profile=RESIZE_480x480" width="350"></img></a> This article was brought to my attention yesterday. In case anyone else comes across the article and demands "evidence" of the psychological abuse, verbal violence, bullying, misrepresentations, lies, defamation, ableism, racism and all round mean-spiritness of guru Francione, here are a few links. Of course, searching ARZone on Facebook will provide a whole lot…</p>
<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/3132491311?profile=original" target="_self"><img width="350" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/3132491311?profile=RESIZE_480x480" width="350" class="align-right"/></a>This article was brought to my attention yesterday. In case anyone else comes across the article and demands "evidence" of the psychological abuse, verbal violence, bullying, misrepresentations, lies, defamation, ableism, racism and all round mean-spiritness of guru Francione, here are a few links. Of course, searching ARZone on Facebook will provide a whole lot more. <br/><br/><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ARZone.net/photos/a.112395452140884.5698.112391102141319/1017325194981234/?type=3&theater" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/ARZone.net/photos/a.112395452140884.5698.112391102141319/1017325194981234/?type=3&theater</a><br/><br/><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ARZone.net/photos/a.112395452140884.5698.112391102141319/1013453512035069/?type=3&theater" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/ARZone.net/photos/a.112395452140884.5698.112391102141319/1013453512035069/?type=3&theater</a><br/><br/><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ARZone.net/photos/a.112395452140884.5698.112391102141319/1025856224128131/?type=3&theater" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/ARZone.net/photos/a.112395452140884.5698.112391102141319/1025856224128131/?type=3&theater</a><br/><br/><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ARZone.net/photos/a.112395452140884.5698.112391102141319/1018454691534951/?type=3&theater" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/ARZone.net/photos/a.112395452140884.5698.112391102141319/1018454691534951/?type=3&theater</a><br/><br/><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ARZone.net/photos/a.112395452140884.5698.112391102141319/1012399285473825/?type=3&theater" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/ARZone.net/photos/a.112395452140884.5698.112391102141319/1012399285473825/?type=3&theater</a><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/></p> I'm still not sure what offen…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-02-24:4715978:Comment:216412011-02-24T02:49:25.128ZCarolyn Baileyhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/CarolynBailey
I'm still not sure what offence you take to Tim's essay. I found Tim's essay to be refreshingly honest and open about a problem that seems to be increasingly more embarrassing to those of us who advocate for peaceful, nonviolent, creative vegan education. I am grateful to Tim for writing such a well written, thoughtful article.<br />
<br />
In what way do you find Prof. Francione a "powerful advocate for the animals", Naomi?
I'm still not sure what offence you take to Tim's essay. I found Tim's essay to be refreshingly honest and open about a problem that seems to be increasingly more embarrassing to those of us who advocate for peaceful, nonviolent, creative vegan education. I am grateful to Tim for writing such a well written, thoughtful article.<br />
<br />
In what way do you find Prof. Francione a "powerful advocate for the animals", Naomi? Hi Naomi,
My sole comment on…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-02-24:4715978:Comment:218472011-02-24T02:48:19.461ZCarolyn Baileyhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/CarolynBailey
Hi Naomi,<br />
My sole comment on this topic was:<br />
<br />
"Hi Naomi,<br />
I'd be happy to hear your reasoning as to why Prof. Francione should be above criticism, and why you feel his body of work is important enough that the truth not be told about him.<br />
Prof. Francione's work is not aimed at reducing "animal suffering", I'm surprised you would assume it was, considering you seem to be so familiar with his work."<br />
<br />
I don't understand how you perceive, based on this singular comment, that I'm "full of hatred" for…
Hi Naomi,<br />
My sole comment on this topic was:<br />
<br />
"Hi Naomi,<br />
I'd be happy to hear your reasoning as to why Prof. Francione should be above criticism, and why you feel his body of work is important enough that the truth not be told about him.<br />
Prof. Francione's work is not aimed at reducing "animal suffering", I'm surprised you would assume it was, considering you seem to be so familiar with his work."<br />
<br />
I don't understand how you perceive, based on this singular comment, that I'm "full of hatred" for Prof. Francione, or anyone else. You asked Kate to name instances of Prof. Francione attacking individuals, I don't think it's appropriate for Kate, myself or anyone else to quote such examples.<br />
On the subject of Prof. Francione's rejection of violence and acceptance of ahimsa, I fully support those ideals. I believe that to suggest there is an appropriateness in ending the violence inflicted on billions of other animals, by inflicting violence on others, is misguided and shows some confusion. I also believe that verbal violence can often be more harmful than physical violence. Calling people "stupid", "uneducable", "violent" etc, and blatantly lying and exaggerating about others, in order to hurt them, is possibly one of the most hurtful, vindictive, pre-meditated sources of violence I could think of. I strongly oppose these actions. So, your suggestion that I may somehow reject the position of non violence is also rather odd.<br />
<br />
Prof. Francione is an advocate for ending all commodification of all animals. Changing the property status of other animals in order to give other animals rights, most importantly the right not to be treated as another's property, and ending speciesism are his goals. He doesn't advocate for less suffering, or reducing suffering, less cruelty or less harm.<br />
<br />
I'm still not sure what offence you take to Tim's essay. I found Tim's essay to be refreshingly honest and open about a problem that seems to be increasingly more embarrassing to those of us who Hi Naomi,
I'll let others r…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-02-24:4715978:Comment:218452011-02-24T02:27:07.764ZTim Gierhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/TimGier
<p>Hi Naomi,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I'll let others respond to your all of your subsequent comments, as they are not addressed to me, but please allow me to make an observation and a comment. You say that there is a place for all opinions in the AR movement, and then suggest that I zip my lips, so there is a contradiction at work here. I realize, of course, that the tone of my piece is both sarcastic and strident, but you will notice that I am not merely slagging on Prof. Francione, I am offering a…</p>
<p>Hi Naomi,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I'll let others respond to your all of your subsequent comments, as they are not addressed to me, but please allow me to make an observation and a comment. You say that there is a place for all opinions in the AR movement, and then suggest that I zip my lips, so there is a contradiction at work here. I realize, of course, that the tone of my piece is both sarcastic and strident, but you will notice that I am not merely slagging on Prof. Francione, I am offering a critique of his methods and pointing out how I see those methods as detrimental within the movement. You are free to disagree with me of course, and I know many people who do, but it is my opinion, I am entitled to it, and I will continue to speak it.</p> that the authorities have com…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-02-23:4715978:Comment:218432011-02-23T22:35:38.452Znaomi eliashttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/naomielias
<p>that the authorities have come down heavily on AR activists (who are much more useful outside prison than they are inside). It is now virtually impossible to breach the walls of laboratories or get through the expensive security of breeders. And the number of animals being used and abused is increasing rather than decreasing. I think that, before we take ANY action at all, we have to ask ourselves, "Is this going to help the animals"?. Obviously, if it is a case of breaking in and…</p>
<p>that the authorities have come down heavily on AR activists (who are much more useful outside prison than they are inside). It is now virtually impossible to breach the walls of laboratories or get through the expensive security of breeders. And the number of animals being used and abused is increasing rather than decreasing. I think that, before we take ANY action at all, we have to ask ourselves, "Is this going to help the animals"?. Obviously, if it is a case of breaking in and rescuing, then the answer is yes. However, even in this situation, if we rescue 100 mice, will they not be replaced with another hundred? It's a tricky question. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>However, back to GF. Whatever his failings, I believe he is still a powerful advocate for the animals and not deserving of such venomous hatred.</p> Hi, Carolyn
I don't think y…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-02-23:4715978:Comment:219042011-02-23T22:26:07.943Znaomi eliashttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/naomielias
<p>Hi, Carolyn</p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="white-space: pre;">I</span> don't think you have read what I said. I asked you to point to the occasions where he viciously attacked individuals, as opposed to organisations. As I have no heroes, I didn't say that he is above criticism; in fact, I believe i said that I don't agree with every one of his views.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>However, from where do you derive the view that his work is not aimed at reducing animal suffering? In fact, he wants to…</p>
<p>Hi, Carolyn</p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="white-space: pre;">I</span> don't think you have read what I said. I asked you to point to the occasions where he viciously attacked individuals, as opposed to organisations. As I have no heroes, I didn't say that he is above criticism; in fact, I believe i said that I don't agree with every one of his views.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>However, from where do you derive the view that his work is not aimed at reducing animal suffering? In fact, he wants to eliminate their suffering by not "using" or exploiting them at all. I have just been listening to a debate he had with Professor Gardener of Leicester University in which he claims that we are not entitled to use animals "in any situation at all", even if we would benefit from such use. The philosophical arguments do tend to become reductio ad absurdum, such as, if I was on a desert island and would starve were I not to kill and eat an animal etc etc. However, I have listened to many, many of his blogs and watched his videos, and it is undeniable that he wishes to eliminate all animal suffering. Why do you claim otherwise? And I ask again, why are you so full of hatred for him? (Obviously I can only go by what I see and hear via the internet and through his books. I don't know him personally. I take it that you do?).</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It has just occurred to me that your argument with him could be his advocacy of non-violence in all instances. Actually, that is where I partially disagree with him, although I don't believe that using violence (even if one is itching to) against humans will help the animals' cause. After all, the number of animals being used and abused is increasing, not decreasing. In Britain, where AR people have managed to shut down animal abusers, they have done it noisily and sometimes quite aggressively, but without the use of violence. Actually, it is because of increased successes against animal exploiters</p> Hi Naomi,
I'd be happy to hea…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-02-23:4715978:Comment:219022011-02-23T21:47:04.183ZCarolyn Baileyhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/CarolynBailey
<p>Hi Naomi,</p>
<p>I'd be happy to hear your reasoning as to why Prof. Francione should be above criticism, and why you feel his body of work is important enough that the truth not be told about him.</p>
<p> Prof. Francione's work is not aimed at reducing "animal suffering", I'm surprised you would assume it was, considering you seem to be so familiar with his work.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Hi Naomi,</p>
<p>I'd be happy to hear your reasoning as to why Prof. Francione should be above criticism, and why you feel his body of work is important enough that the truth not be told about him.</p>
<p> Prof. Francione's work is not aimed at reducing "animal suffering", I'm surprised you would assume it was, considering you seem to be so familiar with his work.</p>
<p> </p> Hi, Kate
As someone who is…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-02-23:4715978:Comment:219012011-02-23T19:03:47.486Znaomi eliashttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/naomielias
<p>Hi, Kate</p>
<p> </p>
<p>As someone who is concerned wholly with animal rights and veganism, I can only say that I agree with the criticisms I have read by GF. I suppose I must be a "fundamentalist" on these issues as I don't think one can really compromise where animal suffering is concerned. You either believe that animals are not property and have rights, or you don't. You either believe that veganism is the basic moral stance, or it isn't. Therefore, could you please quote the…</p>
<p>Hi, Kate</p>
<p> </p>
<p>As someone who is concerned wholly with animal rights and veganism, I can only say that I agree with the criticisms I have read by GF. I suppose I must be a "fundamentalist" on these issues as I don't think one can really compromise where animal suffering is concerned. You either believe that animals are not property and have rights, or you don't. You either believe that veganism is the basic moral stance, or it isn't. Therefore, could you please quote the instances where he has named, and viciously attacked, individuals. I was, for many years, a left-wing activist in the British Labour Movement and it was quite sickening to see the splits and the venom from people who were all supposed to be on the same side. When I "joined" the AR movement I naively thought, again, that we would all cuddle up together to defeat our enemies. Unfortunately, AR people are people! The reason the world is in the state it's in is because of people. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I go along with the late-lamented Tony Banks MP, who moved a Motion in the House of Commons a number of years ago. "This house...believes that humans represent the most obscene, perverted, cruel, uncivilized and lethal species ever to inhabit the planet, and looks forward to the day when the inevitable asteroid slams into the earth and wipes them out, thus giving nature the opportunity to start again." After all, what is the point of us if we can't pull together for the sake of the animals and the planet? I cannot comprehend your hatred of GF. As far as I'm concerned his love of, and advocacy for, animals, is good enough for me, as is the advocacy of Steve Best whom I also admire. I have room in my heart for all true animal lovers.</p> Hi naomi. I will assume you'r…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-02-23:4715978:Comment:211892011-02-23T12:02:22.052ZKate✯GO VEGAN+NOBODY GETS HURT Ⓥhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/KateGOVEGANandNobodyGetsHurt
<p>Hi naomi. I will assume you're one of the lucky ones who do not know that man as well as we do.</p>
<p>I think it's really important that Tim does not keep his lips zipped, especially as he has the courage and eloquence to say what many of us have personal experience of. I think that what Tim has written here is fair, well-balanced and actually quite restrained compared with what could have been said.</p>
<p>I think the best thing for animals and our movement would be if "Captain Queeg" were…</p>
<p>Hi naomi. I will assume you're one of the lucky ones who do not know that man as well as we do.</p>
<p>I think it's really important that Tim does not keep his lips zipped, especially as he has the courage and eloquence to say what many of us have personal experience of. I think that what Tim has written here is fair, well-balanced and actually quite restrained compared with what could have been said.</p>
<p>I think the best thing for animals and our movement would be if "Captain Queeg" were to -</p>
<p>"shut up and go away. He ought to leave his books as his legacy and take his mean-spirited and relentless attacks on EVERYBODY in the animal movement with him into retirement, preferably to a remote island without internet access".</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Although personally I find little or no value in his books, other than as rather badly written, retrogressive historical documents.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Thanks Tim for the great job you're doing at speaking for the animals.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Antispeciesist greetings</p> I'm not an acolyte, nor do I…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-02-23:4715978:Comment:214482011-02-23T10:38:27.988Znaomi eliashttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/naomielias
I'm not an acolyte, nor do I agree with all he says. However, I have never found him to be as nasty as Tim here. There's a place for all opinions in the AR movement. I disagree with some of the opinions and actions of some of my friends but I don't slag them off in this way. From my experience of campaigning I feel that around 90% of the human population is shit and couldn't care less about the suffering of animals. It is imperative, therefore, that those of us who do care stick together…
I'm not an acolyte, nor do I agree with all he says. However, I have never found him to be as nasty as Tim here. There's a place for all opinions in the AR movement. I disagree with some of the opinions and actions of some of my friends but I don't slag them off in this way. From my experience of campaigning I feel that around 90% of the human population is shit and couldn't care less about the suffering of animals. It is imperative, therefore, that those of us who do care stick together and support one another. And if one or two, here and there, are a bit more big-headed than most (and I know some like that) - so what? At least they are spending their lives speaking out for our precious brothers and sisters - and we desperately need their voices. So, Tim, keep your lips zipped - unless you are speaking for the animals!