Comments - Bruce Friedrich Additional Chat Questions - Animal Rights Zone2024-03-28T14:42:46Zhttp://arzone.ning.com/profiles/comment/feed?attachedTo=4715978%3ABlogPost%3A24501&xn_auth=noJane, I'm sorry to hear about…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-03-22:4715978:Comment:254372011-03-22T04:35:52.644Zred doghttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/reddog
<p>Jane, I'm sorry to hear about the injured activist in Australia but I don't see the relevance of her story to this discussion. The CCF, and the question of why Nathan Winograd answered an e-mail from one of its representatives a few years ago, are equally off topic here. Your responses--suggesting that we shouldn't criticize PETA or demand answers to perfectly legitimate questions, for fear of being "on the same side" as CCF--don't show much respect either for the purpose of this thread or…</p>
<p>Jane, I'm sorry to hear about the injured activist in Australia but I don't see the relevance of her story to this discussion. The CCF, and the question of why Nathan Winograd answered an e-mail from one of its representatives a few years ago, are equally off topic here. Your responses--suggesting that we shouldn't criticize PETA or demand answers to perfectly legitimate questions, for fear of being "on the same side" as CCF--don't show much respect either for the purpose of this thread or the purpose of ARZone.</p>
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<p>Bruce represents a well-funded, highly influential organization that many people look to as the voice of the animal rights movement. We have the right to ask him to justify PETA's decisions. Bruce had a chance to set the record straight at ARZone and to answer the concerns Nathan Winograd and others have raised about PETA's policies concerning homeless animals. Instead, he chose to post links that don't even come close to answering the questions. They "suggest" answers, but that's about it.</p>
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<p>Apparently some of the animals PETA takes in are sick. Apparently at least one vet recommended euthanasia for at least one dog. Apparently some animals have injuries that aren't pleasant to look at (which doesn't necessarily mean they're untreatable--one-eyed cats and blind cats can still live decent lives). And the links tell us that some of the animals PETA deals with are either adopted or continue to live with their families in improved conditions. That's good to know, but it doesn't even come close to an explanation for the statistics Nathan Winograd cites in his blog post--let alone a justification.</p>
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<p>I think Winograd's "venom" comes from the frustration of not having been listened to the first 10 million times he tried to raise the issues politely. He's found a successful approach to sheltering--one that gets animals adopted and draws supporters into shelters. Why won't PETA and other big organizations acknowledge that success and publicly advocate the strategies that worked for Tompkins County and other communities?</p>
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<p>You also misrepresent Winograd when you say he exonerates irresponsible people--what he says very clearly is that communities should be able to do much better, <strong>despite</strong> the presence of some irresponsible members. <strong>Everyone</strong> doesn't breed/abuse/abandon the animals they live with (farmed animals are a different case, obviously). Many people would love to adopt, foster and/or volunteer if shelters changed their strategy.</p> I'd read both and wonder that…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-03-20:4715978:Comment:247452011-03-20T04:37:40.962ZJane Summershttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/JaneSummers
<p>I'd read both and wonder that where in the history of humanity is there a reason to focus such faith & optimism on humans. it sure isn't present in these arguments either as they rest on the 'externalisation of blame'. There is a simultaneous and conflicting respect and condescension shown to the consumer for, if they weren't victims of false advertising - 'humane meat', then they would alternatively be susceptible converts to a vegan lifestyle.</p>
<p>What is the explanation for the…</p>
<p>I'd read both and wonder that where in the history of humanity is there a reason to focus such faith & optimism on humans. it sure isn't present in these arguments either as they rest on the 'externalisation of blame'. There is a simultaneous and conflicting respect and condescension shown to the consumer for, if they weren't victims of false advertising - 'humane meat', then they would alternatively be susceptible converts to a vegan lifestyle.</p>
<p>What is the explanation for the many people who are entirely informed of the process nonhumans endure to become the products these same people insist on consuming/wearing etc? </p>
<p>Contrastingly, why are there a comparable few who, despite being ignorant of the details of torture experienced in this process, innately recognise it is wrong to exploit others?</p>
<p>Winograd follows the same line in that he exonerates the public- 'they really care for companion animals' .... ignoring the relentless tragic abandonment of dogs/cats into the global shelters/pounds. Who are breeding, buying and dumping these souls with less regard than is held for an item of clothing ? To generally accuse the shelter/pound managers (some of whom he has rightly exposed) is to give the green light to a major perpetrator - the breeders: this beggars belief.</p>
<p>The root cause of nonhuman animal exploitation are the billions of people who do not want to change - human psychology inherently opposes the consideraton of other species suffering. Endevouring to deny this fundamental reason for the continue abuse of non humans is obstructionist. The evidence sadly speaks for itself Brandon, instead I so wish, for the sake of other animals, that it did not undermine your philosophy of optimism in human nature. Please refer to the following link:</p>
<a href="http://www.humiliationstudies.org/documents/BartlettResistanceAnimalRights.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.humiliationstudies.org/documents/BartlettResistanceAnimalRights.pdf</a><br />
<p> </p> I have no idea why you think…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-03-20:4715978:Comment:248522011-03-20T00:30:04.183ZBrandon Beckerhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/BrandonBecker
<p>I have no idea why you think I have "utter condemnation" for PETA and am making them a "scapegoat" for the continued mass enslavement and murder of other animals by humans. Please read my last post again, including the link I posted.</p>
<p>I have no idea why you think I have "utter condemnation" for PETA and am making them a "scapegoat" for the continued mass enslavement and murder of other animals by humans. Please read my last post again, including the link I posted.</p> Hello Brandon,
Our opinion a…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-03-19:4715978:Comment:247422011-03-19T23:58:15.602ZJane Summershttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/JaneSummers
<p>Hello Brandon,</p>
<p>Our opinion about the attitude of the general society to animal suffering is fundamental to the tactics we support for change. I am absolutely convinced that the bulk of humanity will never have empathy for other animals and the only way any effective change ( a vegan world) will occur will be from selfish motivations or for human survival.</p>
<p>Consequently I listen to those who do not believe welfare changes are advantageous and truly scratch my head in distress.…</p>
<p>Hello Brandon,</p>
<p>Our opinion about the attitude of the general society to animal suffering is fundamental to the tactics we support for change. I am absolutely convinced that the bulk of humanity will never have empathy for other animals and the only way any effective change ( a vegan world) will occur will be from selfish motivations or for human survival.</p>
<p>Consequently I listen to those who do not believe welfare changes are advantageous and truly scratch my head in distress. Time is the essence and to hold out for complete obliteration of the massive animal-exploiting industries is to ignore the plight of those currently ensnared in their cruel grasp.</p>
<p>The irony in your statement is that you display some confidence in ' the vast majority of society' implying people will care when educated - yet you have utter condemnation for an organisation which clearly opposes a broad range of animal abusing activities/industries & applies a consistent & public message, in fact educates, to go vegan.</p>
<p>It just makes zero sense and again I wonder if it is a frustrated deflection applied by some empathetic people- To cope with the harsh reality you've selecting a 'scapegoat' to excuse the absolute & continued apathy shown by the masses 2wards reducing the commodity status of nonhumans.</p> Being attacked by industry ma…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-03-19:4715978:Comment:249062011-03-19T17:32:52.845ZBrandon Beckerhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/BrandonBecker
Being attacked by industry may mean a measure of success, though in some cases it certainly is just theater to attack the conservatives as "extremists" to help further marginalize the radicals. In the case of the petakillsanimals website, PETA is simply handing CCF an easy opportunity to attack them (and the movement by extension) by killing healthy dogs, cats, and others for population control. PETA's actions on this issue are inexcusable and, combined with PETA's many outlandish media stunts…
Being attacked by industry may mean a measure of success, though in some cases it certainly is just theater to attack the conservatives as "extremists" to help further marginalize the radicals. In the case of the petakillsanimals website, PETA is simply handing CCF an easy opportunity to attack them (and the movement by extension) by killing healthy dogs, cats, and others for population control. PETA's actions on this issue are inexcusable and, combined with PETA's many outlandish media stunts that trivialize serious issues, causes many individuals to dismiss all animal rights advocates as "crazy PETA people."<br />
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I understand working on many different fronts and using a diversity of tactics, but we need those tactics to be effective at moving us towards liberation. Some groups in the movement are being co-opted by industry to serve their ends: <a href="http://www.tribeofheart.org/tohhtml/essay_ims.htm" target="_blank">http://www.tribeofheart.org/tohhtml/essay_ims.htm</a><br />
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Finally, I think you are dead wrong to say the vast majority of society doesn't care about suffering - they do, but they get lied to by the food, clothing, vivisection, and entertainment industries who claim the animals they exploit have happy lives and "humane" deaths. It's up to us to expose the truth and struggle for total abolition. I wasn't going to write a res…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-03-19:4715978:Comment:249012011-03-19T03:23:16.719ZJane Summershttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/JaneSummers
<p>I wasn't going to write a response like this however here 'tis:</p>
<p>It's opening season for duck shooters in Victoria Australia this weekend and one of the duck rescuers/protesters has been shot in her face by a shooter a few hours ago. There have been many on-line responses to the news article of this poor girls injury. These responses can be divided into those who see her as an idiot and those who see her as a hero. I trust this girls motivation for protesting - my absolute belief is…</p>
<p>I wasn't going to write a response like this however here 'tis:</p>
<p>It's opening season for duck shooters in Victoria Australia this weekend and one of the duck rescuers/protesters has been shot in her face by a shooter a few hours ago. There have been many on-line responses to the news article of this poor girls injury. These responses can be divided into those who see her as an idiot and those who see her as a hero. I trust this girls motivation for protesting - my absolute belief is that she is a hero.</p>
<p>If you are considering the big picture - what is it that casues you guys to read the Peta website and distrust their motivations ?</p>
<p>It is a measure of Peta's success that the CCF publishes the website petakillsanimals.</p>
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<p>It is ultra-disturbing that every word you write/ ever moment you spend criticising peta and others, could be aimed at the big abusers instead of an organisation, that while not conforming exactly to your philosophy, is so clearly on the side of nonhuman animals . Not only are you undermining the animal advocacy movement but you are also undermining your precious time. Academics tend to get bogged down in semantics -animal rights/abolition/welfare. The real world doesn't give a damn about those terms - its' action that gets the message across.</p>
<p>As the vast majority of society doesn't care about other animals suffering ; the actual exploiters must laugh up their bloodstained sleeves knowing that some animal activists are saving them some time and trouble by accusing peta of all manner of 'sins' - sexism/killing/being shallow ??/not concerned with animal rights?? / entangled alliances ??? etc etc</p>
<p> it just doesn't gel to oppose others who actually have so much in common in the fight against animal exploitation. Recognise that united we stand-divided=fall and that a battle can be fought from a number of fronts......please...</p>
<p> </p> Nathan Winograd gave a talk i…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-03-18:4715978:Comment:245352011-03-18T12:44:10.499ZBrandon Beckerhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/BrandonBecker
Nathan Winograd gave a talk in my area last year on no-kill philosophy and strategy and he seemed like a sincere and intelligent person. I wish he would have never given that interview with the CCF in 2007 as it helped legitimize a corporate front group, however I don't think he would even be asked to do one today let alone agree to the interview with them. Winograd is much more open about being vegan and supports animal rights (see this interview:…
Nathan Winograd gave a talk in my area last year on no-kill philosophy and strategy and he seemed like a sincere and intelligent person. I wish he would have never given that interview with the CCF in 2007 as it helped legitimize a corporate front group, however I don't think he would even be asked to do one today let alone agree to the interview with them. Winograd is much more open about being vegan and supports animal rights (see this interview: <a href="http://www.friendsofanimals.org/actionline/Autumn-2009/Lifesaver.php" target="_blank">http://www.friendsofanimals.org/actionline/Autumn-2009/Lifesaver.php</a> ) and has a vegan cookbook coming out later this year: <a href="http://www.nathanwinograd.com/?p=3670" target="_blank">http://www.nathanwinograd.com/?p=3670</a><br />
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Lastly, just because myself and others are critical of some of PETA's campaigns doesn't mean that we support CCF or other corporate front groups. I know the enemy and it is why I want to stop any entangling alliances with industry and help keep the movement focused on animal liberation. Nathan Winograd criticised Pe…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-03-18:4715978:Comment:245282011-03-18T06:20:20.851ZJane Summershttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/JaneSummers
<p>Nathan Winograd criticised Peta in an interview with the Centre for Consumer Freedom .</p>
<p>Here is a comment by the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine about the CCF;</p>
<p>"If you are in the business of putting veal or beef on the tables of America, and slaughtering more than a million animals per hour, and making an awful lot of money at it, you are going to try to neutralize PETA or other animal-rights groups."</p>
The venomous manner in which Winograd verbally attacks…
<p>Nathan Winograd criticised Peta in an interview with the Centre for Consumer Freedom .</p>
<p>Here is a comment by the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine about the CCF;</p>
<p>"If you are in the business of putting veal or beef on the tables of America, and slaughtering more than a million animals per hour, and making an awful lot of money at it, you are going to try to neutralize PETA or other animal-rights groups."</p>
The venomous manner in which Winograd verbally attacks Ingrid Newkirk is unusual and given he repeated such criticism to the CCF also suspicious.<br />
<p>Those who spend their energy slamming Peta should do some simple maths/logic & redirect their focus on the mega food companies who profit from the shocking exploitation of nonhumans.</p>
<p>Is it a defeatist attitude which motivates frustrated animal activists to target a more vulnerable organisation ?</p>
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<p> </p> Bruce, you didn't respond ade…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-03-17:4715978:Comment:240752011-03-17T13:56:31.121ZBrandon Beckerhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/BrandonBecker
<p>Bruce, you didn't respond adequately to any of my three questions.</p>
<p>1. Why use a song for veganism and animal liberation to promote gassing chickens to death? It makes no sense.</p>
<p>2. What is your source behind the vegan vs. vegetarian statistics? You simply asserted your previous claim.</p>
<p>2. Why give animal enslavers and murderers awards for coming up with new ways to enslave and murder? It makes no sense.</p>
<p>Bruce, you didn't respond adequately to any of my three questions.</p>
<p>1. Why use a song for veganism and animal liberation to promote gassing chickens to death? It makes no sense.</p>
<p>2. What is your source behind the vegan vs. vegetarian statistics? You simply asserted your previous claim.</p>
<p>2. Why give animal enslavers and murderers awards for coming up with new ways to enslave and murder? It makes no sense.</p> Happy Purim everyone! Queen E…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-03-17:4715978:Comment:240672011-03-17T10:00:15.230ZJanine Laura Bronsonhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/JanineLauraBronson
<p>Happy Purim everyone! Queen Esther was possibly living a vegan lifestyle, or at least a vegetarian one to keep Kosher. According to a vegetarian Rabbi I interviewed on radio at JollyJanYorViewpoint posted on YouTube last year, by the name of Jason Van Leeuwn, Kashrut is a roadmap to vegetarianism...</p>
<p>Animal speciesism, if looked at from any religious point of view, depending on the religion, is based on ethics. What religion to you subscribe to (if any organized one) or code of ethics…</p>
<p>Happy Purim everyone! Queen Esther was possibly living a vegan lifestyle, or at least a vegetarian one to keep Kosher. According to a vegetarian Rabbi I interviewed on radio at JollyJanYorViewpoint posted on YouTube last year, by the name of Jason Van Leeuwn, Kashrut is a roadmap to vegetarianism...</p>
<p>Animal speciesism, if looked at from any religious point of view, depending on the religion, is based on ethics. What religion to you subscribe to (if any organized one) or code of ethics when you exhibit your personal convictions and are more conscious about sharing compassion towards animals?</p>
<p>Here is a link to another Rabbi's reasons, Rabbi Simchah ["Jovial"] Roth for his first becoming vegetarian, and then vegan, and his research into the Biblical supporting verses speaking out for animals of all forms to help stop the pain and suffering...</p>
<p>Please spread the word. Although this article is almost forty pages long, it is a good read, and well worth the effort!</p>
<p> <a target="_blank" href="http://www.bmv.org.il/v/vegan.html"></a><a target="_blank" href="http://www.bmv.org.il/v/vegan.html">http://www.bmv.org.il/v/vegan.html</a> <br/><br/></p>
<p>Thanks</p>
<p>Blessings,</p>
<p>Janine</p>
<p><a href="mailto:a11massage@aol.com">a11massage@aol.com</a></p>
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