Comments - Transcript of Peter Young's Live ARZone Guest Chat - Animal Rights Zone2024-03-28T21:48:52Zhttp://arzone.ning.com/profiles/comment/feed?attachedTo=4715978%3ABlogPost%3A59244&xn_auth=noHi Roger, You are correct, an…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-08-18:4715978:Comment:605162011-08-18T20:49:05.276ZTim Gierhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/TimGier
Hi Roger, <br></br><br></br>You are correct, and many vegans will be a living witness of their veganism to the world, and they will do "outreach" just by the very fact of their being unabashedly vegan. At the same time, I do hope we can agree that it is possible, and even likely, that there are some vegans who deliberately don't act as witnesses to the world, and who don't do anything by way of outreach. If this is true, and it seems that it must be, then veganism alone is not activism. Veganism plus…
Hi Roger, <br/><br/>You are correct, and many vegans will be a living witness of their veganism to the world, and they will do "outreach" just by the very fact of their being unabashedly vegan. At the same time, I do hope we can agree that it is possible, and even likely, that there are some vegans who deliberately don't act as witnesses to the world, and who don't do anything by way of outreach. If this is true, and it seems that it must be, then veganism alone is not activism. Veganism plus something else is activism.<br/><br/>As far as whether vegan education (as an informative practice) is the most effective way to actually help other people become vegan, I think we actually can know more about that than your comment suggests. For example, research has shown that many people will have a firmer grip on to their preconceived ideas <i>after</i> someone presents them with clear and convincing evidence that ought to cause them to abandon, or at least question, those ideas. In the same way, studies have shown that people generally believe their own arguments more completely <em>after</em> engaging with reasonable counterarguments. <br/><br/>I think if advocates want to do "vegan education" by leafletting or discussing the moral arguments in support of their position, they ought to be aware that they make actually be making their own job harder. In any case, they ought not to criticize others who have a different approach, as if "vegan education" was known to be the only, or the most, effective way to "create new vegans". <br/><br/>What Tyler said is true. When there are more people who are vegan, then more people will find it easier to become vegan. Most of us do what we do because most of the rest of the world does what it does.<br/> <br/>I've worked out in my mind what I think is compelling moral argument for why no one should intentionally harm or kill another conscious being. But if there's a better way to get people to begin to adopt veganism that doesn't involve me making that moral argument, why in the world would I insist on making it? It's not really all that immediately important to me why the harming and killing others stops, what is immediately important is that it stops. When did I suggest NOT making…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-08-18:4715978:Comment:605132011-08-18T17:32:17.524ZTylerhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/Tyler586
<p>When did I suggest NOT making a case for vegan education? I've suggested the opposite; that vegan education has to form the foundation of the movement. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I agree that we have no real way of knowing what will work best and what won't. I guess time will tell. What I'm saying is what happens if we focus 110% on vegan education, and after 100 years or 200 years we still only have a tiny fraction of the population vegan? Of course I'm saying 'IF'. Again, we have no way of…</p>
<p>When did I suggest NOT making a case for vegan education? I've suggested the opposite; that vegan education has to form the foundation of the movement. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I agree that we have no real way of knowing what will work best and what won't. I guess time will tell. What I'm saying is what happens if we focus 110% on vegan education, and after 100 years or 200 years we still only have a tiny fraction of the population vegan? Of course I'm saying 'IF'. Again, we have no way of knowing. That's why I think it's important that we think about this and talk about it now. If vegan education, in conjunction with other things, can create a larger number of vegans and get us closer to abolition, then maybe that's the way to go. I honestly have no idea. I'm not suggesting we do that, I'm just trying to discuss this issue with other people and get their opinion. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>The premise I'm suggesting is that maybe our society is more complicated, and the animal issue is more complicated, than 100% no exceptions vegan education can solve. Maybe we need to employ other tatics as well to be successful. Maybe. Maybe not. I'm just saying. Thinking out loud. What do you guys think? </p> I think meeting a larger numb…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-08-18:4715978:Comment:604162011-08-18T16:58:04.542ZTylerhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/Tyler586
I think meeting a larger number of vegans is one of the most important things in getting some, although not all, people to veganism. Now when I tell someone I'm vegan they often say, "wow, I've never met a vegan before." So at this point most of us are considered weirdos in normal society because there are so few of us. But the more vegans there are the less weird we will seem. Maybe a few years down the road when I tell someone I'm vegan they'll say, "Yeah, my sister's a vegan, and two of…
I think meeting a larger number of vegans is one of the most important things in getting some, although not all, people to veganism. Now when I tell someone I'm vegan they often say, "wow, I've never met a vegan before." So at this point most of us are considered weirdos in normal society because there are so few of us. But the more vegans there are the less weird we will seem. Maybe a few years down the road when I tell someone I'm vegan they'll say, "Yeah, my sister's a vegan, and two of my friends, and my brother in law, and my dentist, and....damb, I know quite a few vegans." And to me, that's HUGE. The more vegans that a person knows will completely change the way that person views veganism, and can only get them closer to thinking about it. That being said, even if they are happy to explain why they are vegan when asked, I hesitate to call them 'activists'. To me they're not that active. I would say they're more 'passive', and then 'reactive' when questioned. I agree. But I still think t…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-08-18:4715978:Comment:600472011-08-18T15:47:26.457ZTylerhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/Tyler586
I agree. But I still think that vegan education has to form the foundation of the movement. I think whatever else we do in terms of integrating the 'animal movement' with other social issues, if we aren't completely clear with people about the moral necessity of veganism, we'll never get a lot of new vegans no matter what we do. Or so it seems to me.
I agree. But I still think that vegan education has to form the foundation of the movement. I think whatever else we do in terms of integrating the 'animal movement' with other social issues, if we aren't completely clear with people about the moral necessity of veganism, we'll never get a lot of new vegans no matter what we do. Or so it seems to me. Tyler,Thank you for sharing y…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-08-18:4715978:Comment:602132011-08-18T13:41:39.700ZTim Gierhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/TimGier
<p>Tyler,<br></br><br></br>Thank you for sharing your experience. I'm sure that many people, like me, see their own journey reflected in yours. Where, when, how and why each of us comes to the decisions we do in our lives aren't a simple things to understand, and the process is made all the more complex because, as you've pointed out, we ourselves don't even know how we got to where we are.<br></br><br></br>As far as vegan education goes, I'd say that as long as vegan education is considered solely or mostly…</p>
<p>Tyler,<br/><br/>Thank you for sharing your experience. I'm sure that many people, like me, see their own journey reflected in yours. Where, when, how and why each of us comes to the decisions we do in our lives aren't a simple things to understand, and the process is made all the more complex because, as you've pointed out, we ourselves don't even know how we got to where we are.<br/><br/>As far as vegan education goes, I'd say that as long as vegan education is considered solely or mostly as information dissemination (via leafletting & conversation about consumerism) then it will fail. </p>
<p>The oppression and exploitation of marginalized others is supported by, promoted by and deeply entangled with the social, economic and political structures which inform and govern our lives. Unless and until "the movement" embraces a strategy that seeks to radically alter these structures, "the movement" will remain ineffective. This isn't, at the very core of the problem, simply about who we eat or who we experiment on. It is about what it means to be a human being in a world filled with equally valuable other beings and how we build a just society. We can't achieve a vegan world while maintaining rampant corporate-capitalism, unbridled military expansionism, unrepresentative political hegemony and relentless environmental degradation. Unfortunately, merely getting people to "go vegan" by itself will do little to nothing end any of those things. Therefore, we need to re-think what is "vegan education" and adopt a more encompassing strategy that looks beyond the plates on our tables and begins to address these broader structural impediments. In order to bring about a vegan world, we might be better off giving up our vegan pamphlets and, instead, joining forces with those people who are working to revolutionize our governments, our economies and our societies. </p> I agree with you Tim. I thin…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-08-18:4715978:Comment:603092011-08-18T04:42:26.728ZTylerhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/Tyler586
I agree with you Tim. I think the road to veganism often requires a lot of little 'experiences' along the way. Maybe someone sees part of a documentary about factory farms on TV, then a few months later goes to a vegan restaurant with a friend, then later reads a leaflet about battery cages, then afterwards drives by a circus protest, etc... I think for some people they'll the get the arguments for veganism right away and go vegan, but I also think you're right that a lot of other people will…
I agree with you Tim. I think the road to veganism often requires a lot of little 'experiences' along the way. Maybe someone sees part of a documentary about factory farms on TV, then a few months later goes to a vegan restaurant with a friend, then later reads a leaflet about battery cages, then afterwards drives by a circus protest, etc... I think for some people they'll the get the arguments for veganism right away and go vegan, but I also think you're right that a lot of other people will hear the argument, agree with the logic, and then keep on doing what they were doing before. I think part of the reason is that they just aren't ready, but I also think that for many of them it was too much too soon. Maybe for some people they need to be exposed to animal issues slowly and in different ways. I think that's how it was for me. When I was 16 I was sitting on my mother's sofa, turned on the TV, and caught the last few minutes of a documentary about factory farming. I had never thought about where my food came before, but I loved animals, and I went vegetarian immediately. Then I did the Peta thing, then I did the 'free range' eggs thing, etc... And then, 17 years later (sigh!), I stumbled into Vegan Freak radio. And I think, after all that time, and all the animal things I'd been exposed to, I was in a place that I was ready to hear an argument for veganism. But I've often wondered what would have happened if I hadn't be exposed to all those things first? Maybe someone would have tried to educate me about veganism, and I just wouldn't have had enough collective experience built up to understand or accept was he/she was saying. I know most of the things that lead me to veganism had very little to do with veganism, and likely fall somewhere into the categories of 'welfare' or 'single issue campaigns. I guess my question is, do you think we can convince the majority of the population to go vegan with vegan education alone? Hi Tyler,
I can't speak for P…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-08-18:4715978:Comment:596842011-08-18T03:30:50.558ZTim Gierhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/TimGier
<p>Hi Tyler,</p>
<p>I can't speak for Peter (obviously!!) and I don't speak for ARZone, I only speak for myself, but if you're interested in what I think, please read on!!</p>
<p>I don't accept the argument that attempting to reform the current systems of exploitation necessarily has the effect of making the eventual abolition of exploitation harder, or that it necessarily has the effect of "making people more comfortable" using other animals now. I understand the argument but I have come to…</p>
<p>Hi Tyler,</p>
<p>I can't speak for Peter (obviously!!) and I don't speak for ARZone, I only speak for myself, but if you're interested in what I think, please read on!!</p>
<p>I don't accept the argument that attempting to reform the current systems of exploitation necessarily has the effect of making the eventual abolition of exploitation harder, or that it necessarily has the effect of "making people more comfortable" using other animals now. I understand the argument but I have come to believe that it is based on a misunderstanding of how human beings act and make decisions. I also think that if the argument were correct that there would be some evidence that it was, and I have yet to see any. (That is, there’s no evidence that campaigns to reform exploitation in order to make it less bad lead to an increase of the use of other animals.) Moreover, there is some evidence that seems to be contrary to what we would expect if the argument were correct. </p>
<p>In any case, I think we are prone to overestimate (perhaps by a wide margin) the effectiveness of “vegan education” as we usually conceptualize it.<span> </span> Nick Cooney will probably shed some light on this in his chat this weekend. We have good evidence that people routinely do not act on the things they say they believe. Human beings are very good at thinking one thing and doing another, even when what they think is something that they consider meaningful or important in their lives.</p>
<p>I submit that we need to change our conceptualization of vegan education, and realize that individuals respond to many different sorts of messages – messages that we might not think of as leading them toward veganism. For all we know, when a person hears about a campaign to eliminate battery cages, that information acts as the trigger that begins their journey towards anti-speciesism and veganism. For all we know, when a person hears us make the moral argument for veganism, that acts as the trigger that begins their thought process rejecting veganism forever. Nick Cooney might have something to say about this as well.</p>
<p>As advocates for others, it doesn’t matter that our moral argument is right. It matters that whatever tactics we employ to end oppression and exploitation work. It is tempting to believe that a sound and valid moral argument is what will work in most cases, but it is likely that that simply isn’t true. Better that we find what is true and go with that.</p>
<p>Am I suggesting that we ought to abandon our moral thinking? No, I am not saying that at all. Sound moral reasoning should inform all of our actions. Sound moral reasoning should lead us to the firm conviction that nothing short of the abolition of exploitation will do justice to those who are being oppressed and exploited. Of that we can be sure. But, what tactics and measures should we employ to bring about our desired goals? Moral reasoning alone will not provide us the answers to that question, because that is not a question only of morality, but also one of social psychology, economic reality and political theory.</p>
<p> </p> Hi Sky! (Sky high?)I agree wi…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-08-18:4715978:Comment:600402011-08-18T01:25:30.893ZTim Gierhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/TimGier
Hi Sky! (Sky high?)<br></br><br></br>I agree with Peter about this. Being vegan is good, because being vegan means that a person has no intention to exploit other animals (and I include human animals). But, to my mind, a person also has to intend to bring about an end to exploitation in order to be an activist. What I mean is that a person who lives as a vegan but does nothing to reach out to non-vegans, even to the point of downplaying their own veganism in order to not "rock the boat", is still a…
Hi Sky! (Sky high?)<br/><br/>I agree with Peter about this. Being vegan is good, because being vegan means that a person has no intention to exploit other animals (and I include human animals). But, to my mind, a person also has to intend to bring about an end to exploitation in order to be an activist. What I mean is that a person who lives as a vegan but does nothing to reach out to non-vegans, even to the point of downplaying their own veganism in order to not "rock the boat", is still a vegan. But they certainly wouldn't be much of an advocate for ending exploitation, would they be? I don't think so. That's not to say that every vegan must be an advocate, or that there's only one way to be an advocate, but it is to say that it's possible to be vegan without being an actual activist in the struggle to end exploitation.<br/><br/>Consider this example: I don't actively withhold food from starving children. I try not to contribute to those things which lead to children starving. But I do little to nothing to actively bring about an end to world hunger or the starvation of children. Would anyone call me an activist with respect to child starvation? I hope not. <br/><br/>I think an activist for ending the exploitation of other animals must have no intentions to exploit others <strong>and</strong> must have intentions to bring about an end to exploitation. Having only one or the other won't do. I feel such a connection with…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-08-15:4715978:Comment:591932011-08-15T02:04:54.906ZSharron Woodwardhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/SharronLeeWoodward
I feel such a connection with Peter & his views. Perhaps this also gives me a disconnect to others. I hope not. I too believe that we can do both - outreach & direct action. This has to be one of my favourite interviews so far.
I feel such a connection with Peter & his views. Perhaps this also gives me a disconnect to others. I hope not. I too believe that we can do both - outreach & direct action. This has to be one of my favourite interviews so far. I'm curious about Peter's vie…tag:arzone.ning.com,2011-08-14:4715978:Comment:594142011-08-14T23:55:51.491ZTylerhttp://arzone.ning.com/profile/Tyler586
I'm curious about Peter's views about welfare campaigns. He gave a pretty straightforward answer to my question (that we should focus on vegan education rather than welfare campaigns), but I got the feeling that he has a more nuanced position. However, by his own admission, he was scared to 'step on a minefield' by saying more. This is a question I think about a lot. I personally only do vegan outreach myself, and I think no matter what vegan education should be the foundation of the…
I'm curious about Peter's views about welfare campaigns. He gave a pretty straightforward answer to my question (that we should focus on vegan education rather than welfare campaigns), but I got the feeling that he has a more nuanced position. However, by his own admission, he was scared to 'step on a minefield' by saying more. This is a question I think about a lot. I personally only do vegan outreach myself, and I think no matter what vegan education should be the foundation of the 'animal movement'. Still, I can't shake the feeling that we can do both and that both are important. I always think about birds in battery cages and sows in gestation crates, etc... It keeps me up at night. And although I think welfare campaigns will indeed likely help to prolong the property status of animals in the minds of the public, I also feel that a large number of people will still continue eating eggs for quite a while to come no matter what we do. To me that isn't pessimism, it's just reality. Or maybe it is pessimism. I don't know. But, if it is likely that the majority of people in our culture will continue eating eggs for the foreseeable future, maybe we need to address that reality somehow and try to reduce their suffering as much as we can. Sorry it's so long. Thoughts?