Animal Rights Zone

Fighting for animal liberation and an end to speciesism

Transcript of ARZone Workshop

5 March 2011 at:

5pm US Eastern Time

10pm GMT and

6 March 2011 at:

8am Australian Eastern Standard Time

 

 

 

Carolyn Bailey::

 

ARZone is pleased to present the first in our series of Workshops.

 

From time to time ARZone will host workshops as an opportunity to involve all members in a conversation about issues and opinions raised in previous Guest Q&A sessions, in order to think critically about those questions and answers and to give everyone the chance to participate in discussion about issues relevant to our relations with other animals.

 

Rather than feature a guest, these workshops will be conducted as open forum discussions for ARZone members, facilitated by the site admins.

 

These workshops will be an excellent opportunity to involve all members in open dialogue, to explore certain issues more fully, and to consider the ways we can all become more informed and better advocates for other animals.

 

We would like to propose that this week’s Workshop focus on three areas:

 

1. Looking Back

2. What’s Next

3. Your Zone

 

All members are encouraged to participate in this workshop, as well as to suggest topics for and participate in future forums in ARZone. Please feel free to jump in and add to the conversation at any time. It’s our custom to write “done” at the end of our comments, so others know when our thoughts are complete, so if you can, please do “done”! :)

 

We’ll begin with a critique of last week’s ARZone guest chat which featured Bruce Friedrich, by discussing Bruce’s “Why Am I Vegetarian?” vs. “Why Am I Vegan?” T-shirt. Bruce said he finds that when he wears his “Why Am I Vegetarian?” t-shirt he has more of an opportunity to talk with people about the larger issues of commodification and exploitation of nonhumans, compared to when he wears his vegan t-shirt the conversations get bogged down in details, denying him the chance to really help move people. What do you think about this? Done

 

Roger Yates:

Shall I kick off?

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Please do

 

Roger Yates:

When Bruce answered Barbara’s follow-up on the veggie T-shirt, he said, “I think your question assumes a level of engagement in the general public with this issue that is (sadly) not yet there.” He added: “What the word vegetarian does is to raise the issue in a way that is less threatening [than veganism].” Bruce suggested that his “Ask me why I’m vegan” shirt resulted in poorer questions than his vegetarian t-shirt. He said the vegan shirt led to diet questions and the vegetarian shirt leads to ethics questions.

 

Social movement theory is also helpful here – eg, frame alignment suggests that it IS best to say things that people already understand. Saying things that are strange to people (like “vegan”) makes the job harder. Social movement theory is also help.

 

However, social movements are often about bring about a shift in thinking. WE WANT TO CHANGE THE PARADIGM WHEN IT COMES TO HUMAN-NONHUMAN RELATIONS. Bruce’s position, for me, neglected what Donald Watson said: have to “ripen up” people to the new idea of veganism and that means not giving up on vegan and going back to the ethically confused position we call vegetarianism.

 

Pablo Fernandez Beri::

How can vegetarianism mean "larger issues"  when the term only applies to food, whereas veganism applies to all animal use?

 

I strongly believe one of the core reasons people don't stop using animals is precisely fear (the other would be addiction)

 

Exactly, veganism is anything but "new"... perhaps it was back in 1944, but not nearly 70 years after that!

 

Tim Gier:

Does Bruce advocate for something less than veganism?

 

Will

Bruce’s argument did not work for me. he said people talk to him about coffee with his vegan tee shirt and that’s not a good start. but if he wants to talk about vegan with his vegetarian shirt he has gotta move the conversation on anyway. with the vegan shirt at least hes talking about veganism from the start?

 

Lisa Viger:

I don't think Bruce ever advocates for less than veganism, but that would make using the word vegetarian instead of vegan more confusing rather than less.

 

Roger Yates:

I agree with Will

Bruce will be talking about something he doesn't want to at the start, coffee or vegetarian...what difference does it make?

 

Pablo Fernandez Beri::

exactly, Roger, according to Bruce's argument, the t-shirt could say just anything like "go yankees"... if then he plans to talk about veganism anyway done

 

Tim Gier:

I am going to post something which Nick Cooney wrote in a post at Vegan Outreach, that may shed some light on this.

"People who receive a Why Vegan or a Why Vegetarian booklet know as soon as they receive it that a very large request is going to be made of them: that they change their diet dramatically. They'd have to find new foods to eat, new restaurants to go to, new grocery stores to shop at, and so forth. Because they know a large request is being made of them they will not want to read the emotional appeal on the inside of the pamphlet.  They'd have to find new foods to eat, new restaurants to go to, new grocery stores to shop at, and so forth. Because they know a large request is being made of them they will not want to read the emotional appeal on the inside of the pamphlet.

 

As a result of empathy avoidance, people who get a booklet with one of these titles should be more likely to throw it away without opening it to read through the message inside.'

 

Pablo Fernandez Beri:

I think saying less than what we advocate for is confusing for the public... then we are still getting these neverending questions about veganism (again, nearly 70 years after the creation of the movement) like "do you eat fishes?" "but you do eat chickens, right?", "what's wrong with milk? you don't kill the cow for that!", etc

do you eat fishes?" "but you do eat chickens, right?", "what's wrong with milk? you don't kill the cow for that!", etc then the problem is of a different kind why would people reject 'not considering animals as a means to their ends' and accept 'not considering animals as a means to their meat-eating ends'?

 

 

Tim Gier:

I agree Pablo, we will get to those questions eventually. But, the point Bruce is making is that some people never get to the point of even those questions, but the reject the idea of veganism at the outset.

 

Roger Yates:

Do people find that "vegan" is now a scare word then?

 

Tim Gier:

I may be wrong, but many advocates suggest that we begin by talking about food animals, rather than making the entire case for animal rights all at once.

 

Pearl Lotus:

I'd consider this as an example of direct and informative education, easily printed on a leaflet : http://www.futureisvegan.com/apps/blog/show/6265256-10-things-every...  I honestly think bruce is blowing smoke. http://www.tribeofheart.org/tohhtml/essay_ims.htm  

 

Roger Yates:

Well, many seem to prefer to go for fur or circuses or vivisection first.

 

Pablo Fernandez Beri:

that's just a statistical approach (besides a single issue campaign)... just because more animals are used for food. That only happens is we keep on partitioning the cause in "categories according to purposes".e.g. first go for red meat, then white meat, then fishes, then fur, then vivisection, then leather, then leather from small animals, then cheese, etc done

 

 

Tim Gier:

It is true that when people feel that a problem is "too big" they think there's nothing their own individual actions can do to solve the problem, so they do nothing.

 

Pablo, if a person got around to being vegan through the steps you just outlined, wouldn't it still be a good thing?

 

Roger Yates:

THis seems to be a fundamental movement issue, Tim - little baby steps -v- a consistent ethical message.

 

Tim Gier:

I think the difficult thing is knowing how we hold on to our convictions while trying to reach people where they are, in ways that resonate with them, to bring about the ultimate change we seek.

 

Pablo Fernandez Beri:

of course, that's not under discussion! I we telling the people the steps.. any steps, random steps instead of allowing for a natural process if the person understands the message and commit, then they'll do it when they feel it, how they feel it

 

Tim Gier:

I agree with you Pablo, people will react to what we say as they choose to.

 

Douglass@UberVegan-Advocacy.com:

We need to re-empower "vegan."  In my opinion, It comes down to being what you make of the message.  I've worn my ask why I'm Vegan hundreds of times, and the mode of conversations always vary. What I will say is that if the shirt is made right (with large print), people will ask so much, it will totally consume your time.  I know.  That's where it comes down to culling the conversation to the topic you want to cover.

 

It can be difficult, especially when first wearing a shirt.  But once you get the hang of it, managing the dialog to cover what you want to discuss gets easier.  But it's on you. You only get good at doing so with practice.  Of course, every conversation is different, especially when dealing with cross or hostile people.  Then it gets tricky. But when it comes down to it, I think we should start out clear with our end-goal.  Making Vegan the message.  Then it's our role to show how easy and beneficial it truly is.

 

Pablo Fernandez Beri:

or to what they perceive as more important first, for them. The steps I described are the way I perceive large animal organizations draw the steps, according to statistics or to their (S-I)campaigns

 

sky

we should just talk about veganism until people get used to it, right?

 

Roger Yates:

That's what Donald Watson suggested in 1944, Sky.

 

sky

And Donald was ignored pretty much until the 21st century!!

 

Tim Gier:

I don't know about that. If I could get someone to give up eating "meat" tomorrow, without ever saying the word vegan, I'd do it - if by using the word vegan I would get them to do nothing at all.

 

Pablo Fernandez Beri:

When would Mr. Frierdich think people would be ready... in 3011 perhaps? so let's keep on promoting "veganism" until people "naturally" get ready for the future term! ;-D

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I agree with you, Pablo. As long as orgs like PeTA shy away from using the word vegan, people will remain scared of veganism

 

Tim Gier:

One would think that there's some empirical research possible on this.

 

Roger Yates:

anyone need a sociologist? !!!

 

Tim Gier:

Everyone needs a sociologist, Dr. Yates!

 

Will

ha!

 

Pablo Fernandez Beri:

"Vegetarian" suggests the idea of being tolerant to honey, dairy and egg consumption... I prefer saying "I don't use animals" before "veganism", but not "vegetarianism"

 

Tim Gier:

Friedrich isn't saying that the world isn't ready for veganism, he's saying that the world knows what veganism is and that conversations about it are not as productive as other conversations would be. done

I'm not saying I agree with him, by the way. I'm just trying to understand his point.

 

Douglass@UberVegan-Advocacy.com:

Well, remember, Friedrich could just be wrong about that..

 

Pablo Fernandez Beri:

then that's a different problem for veganism if it has bad rep

 

Carolyn Bailey:

At this point, I'd like to suggest we move onto our next topic for discussion from Bruce's chat last week, which is sexism in the animal advocacy community, specifically within PeTA.

Bruce made some rather surprising comments in his chat last week, one I found quite shocking was his perception that the PeTA Superbowl ad was "funny", amongst other strange and disappointing statements

 

sky

Shocking that

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Would anyone else like to comment on Bruce's replies to this topic from his chat?

 

Tim Gier:

He also made the rather insulting comment that those who are pointing out the exploitation of women through PeTA's ads are the ones guilty of sexism.

 

Pablo Fernandez Beri:

blaming the counterpart, mmmm... I get it

 

Will

If we believe in Steve Best and alliance politics we should not be pissing off the feminists for a start!

 

Tim Gier:

Maybe PeTA really believes that the use of near-pornography is helpful, but it isn't a very enlightened view. The excuse Bruce gave is "Everyone does it, Sex sells!!" pretty lame stuff if you ask me.

 

Brooke Cameron:

Bruce seems to be unwilling to accept responsibility for his inappropriate and insulting ads, forgetting or ignoring the fact that children also see these stereotypes that PeTA portray

 

Tim Gier:

I don't find it credible that an organization that is supposed to be about eliminating exploitation participates in exploitation.

 

Roger Yates:

I speculate that we'll see that PeTa brothel soon. Slogan, "Read this before you come."

 

Will

ha!

 

Tim Gier:

We've submitted a number of questions to Bruce on this topic, and he has promised to respond to all them in the next few days.

 

Pablo Fernandez Beri:

I would't expect moral consistency from PETA, they don't have it regarding animal use, they don't have it regarding sexism either

 

sky

What shocks me is the number of women who DEFEND PETA on this issue of sexism :-(

 

Tim Gier:

Pablo, that's an excellent point. PeTA's utilitarianism does justify the means to the end. Whatever

 

Pablo Fernandez Beri:

exactly, Tim

 

Fifi Leigh: Leigh:

The people who defend it are more defending the celebs promoting it, because that celeb is their idol.

 

sky

Good point

 

Tim Gier:

You're right Fifi Leigh:, we do have a culture in the US which worships celebrity.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Good point, Fifi Leigh:

 

Roger Yates:

I think you are right, Fifi Leigh:. PeTA do say that they’re tapping into celeb culture (shallow as it is).

 

Tim Gier:

and money, and power, and fame, and sports, and.......

 

Fifi Leigh: Leigh:

that is why peta and other such organizations use celebs

 

Pablo Fernandez Beri:

I'd worry more about PETA talking about animal "rights" before criticizing them for being sexist

 

Roger Yates:

Yes, the "vegan" celebs who end up being anything but.

 

Pablo Fernandez Beri:

good point, Roger

 

Roger Yates:

Yours too, Pablo. PeTA seem determined to distort what animal rights means.

 

Tim Gier:

As the dominant face of "animal rights" in America, PeTA's antics give the whole movement a bad name. People complain about the negative image of the ALF, but in my mind, PeTA are just as bad if not worse.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Ahh, yes, people like Pam Anderson who opens and is spokesperson for a NY steakhouse. Excellent advocate for PeTA.

 

Pablo Fernandez Beri:

good point, Carolyn! ;-D

I think PETA and ALF give the AR movement bad rep in different ways

(my comment was in reply to Tim's comment) not the ALF as much as peta

 

Mangus O’Shales:

the ALF liberates animals, PeTA kills them

 

Pablo Fernandez Beri:

you're right about that, Mangus

 

Will

shoot - Mangus - sos!!

 

Debbie Blundell:

A woman talking about animal rights in front of a convention of men and women stripping down to show her breasts does nothing to advocate for animals....as all the men is ogle the womans breasts, to me a total degradation to the animals plight

 

Fifi Leigh: Leigh:

i was at Pam Anderson’s book signing of her novel, and there was a long line of women who looked like Pam wannabes, and all were wearing peta, or animal rights t-shirts to support her.

 

Roger Yates:

One Q I was considering for Bruce was - would he be surprised if the ALF attacked PeTA?

 

Mangus O’Shales:

Why, Roger?

 

Pablo Fernandez Beri:

It would certainly be a surprise, Roger!

 

Roger Yates:

Well, it seems to me that the ALF tend to attack the interests of organisations that kill nonhuman animals. done

 

Pablo Fernandez Beri:

just browse for links to PETA at the ALF website and vice versa

 

Will:

An ALF raid on peta would be so cool

 

Mangus O’Shales:

oh, i get it now, thanks

 

Ben Hornby

I think an ALF raid on PeTA would make sense too, but they seem to support each other, don't they?

 

Pablo Fernandez Beri:

good one, Will

 

Will

put them in their place!!!!

 

Pablo Fernandez Beri:

just browse and you'll see the links, Ben!

 

Tim Gier:

Fifi Leigh: & Debbie, what you've both said shows how much the sexism in our culture has been internalized by women - growing up constantly exposed to this garbage has a very negative effect.

 

Roger Yates:

What PeTA and their defenders ignore is that it is not white middle class women who bear the brunt of patriarchal relations, it is the trafficked sex workers and others with no power. We cannot confuse individual choice and societal consequences

 

Pablo Fernandez Beri:

http://www.animalliberationfront.com/AR_Orgs/PETA.htm

 

Debbie Blundell:

Exactly these women are laughed at, which means the agony of the animals is laughed at, too heart breaking and ridiculous for words and thank you for your responses, Tim and Roger.

 

Roger Yates:

Women are in a much more difficult place in this regard - meaning that Bruce's comments about HIM not feeling exploited are meaningless.

 

Fifi Leigh: Leigh:

And big business are controlled by zionisms, and zionism is all about destruction and massacre rather than production and progress, all for power

 

sky

Go for it Adolf.

 

Fifi Leigh: Leigh:

actually, zionism it not much different than nazism

same sick crap

 

Red dog

Pablo, the video was removed. What was it about?

 

Pablo Fernandez Beri:

no idea, red... I wonder the same thing, but before the video was put there, the link directed straight to PETA website. I just wasn't able to see that video

 

Tim Gier:

At one time, PeTA was quite radical, were they not?

 

Red Dog:

Not sure, but they were better than they are now …

 

Debbie Blundell:

So do you feel that their disasteful ads and advocacy for animals at the moment is because maybe of burnout, lack of wonderful ideas or just not enough level headed people in there

 

Tim Gier:

Roger has talked before about how social movements spawn grassroots organizations which start off radical outsiders and end up as moderate insiders who are more interested in maintaining their own organization than making the world change.

 

Pablo Fernandez Beri:

exactly, Roger, I believe it happens in political movements anyway, apparently getting huge brings that lack of consistency. I've seen that in politics at least.

 

Fifi Leigh:

it is probably all marketing. i am sure it is all embedded with subliminal material to get through people's heads

 

Tim Gier:

I think it's what Pablo said - evidence of a confused morality on PeTA's part.

 

Red dog:

I get the feeling they're trying to offend and provoke because they think that's the only way to get attention ... I prefer the serious approach taken by Animal Equality.

 

Fifi Leigh:

Subconscious manipulations of the viewers minds to follow them and buy into their products or their message.

 

Tim Gier:

me too red dog!

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I also agree red dog

 

Debbie Blundell:

It will always be hard, but they need to reach out, swallow their pride and ask for help

 

Red dog:

Anyway, I think it was Al who asked Bruce the 6 million dollar question ... he's not going to give us any unauthorized responses because he wants to keep his job.

 

Fifi Leigh:

yeah, his answers were guarded to protect his organization.

 

red dog:

But I do hope he'll come up with more specific responses about the so-called "community animal project."

 

What we got before was a real non-answer.

 

Debbie Blundell:

community animal project? sounds wonderful

 

Fifi Leigh:

sometimes he went in circles so not to give a straight answer and to avoid the question that he didnt want to really answer

 

red dog:

It does, doesn't it?

 

Tim Gier:

red dog, when it comes to the dogs and cats PeTA kills, is it true, do you think, that many of the animals that PeTA takes in are "too far gone" to adopt out - to ravaged by illness or whatever - and "putting them out of their misery" has to be done?

 

red dog:

I have no idea ... it may be the case with a few. If so, why didn't Bruce tell us what was wrong with them and why they couldn't be treated? I still don't understand when and under what circumstances PETA takes animals at all. There are other agencies

 

in the area whose job it is to deal with stray animals, aren't there?

 

Anyway, I think Bruce needs to clarify everything about that department within PETA and give us a detailed breakdown explaining their decisions.

 

Tim Gier:

I agree with you on that, red dog. They have a responsibility to the public (and more importantly, to the animals themselves)

 

red dog:

Right.

 

Pablo Fernandez Beri:

good point, red, they can't claim all the animals of the thousands they killed were agonizing.

 

red dog:

It's hard to believe there was no hope for all those animals and that only eight could be saved.

 

Debbie Blundell:

So maybe obviously PeTa is educating the public about having animals so thousands of animals don't end up being dumped on PeTAs doorstep or pound because they couldn't afford them in the first place

 

red dog:

That's another thing that makes me mad ... Bruce had the opportunity to explain the workings of that department and to explain its decisions. Instead he reprimanded us for asking the questions. F that.

 

Tim Gier:

If the option to kill the animals was taken completely off the table, then PeTA would find better ways to deal with them.

 

red dog:

Not only PETA, but society as a whole would find other ways.

 

Tim Gier:

that's very true, red dog

 

red dog:

Debbie, I don't understand what you're saying. I don't think it addresses the concerns people have raised.

 

Debbie Blundell:

Ok my apologies, was just saying does PeTA put out advertisements or commercials about the public thinking carefully about taking on a pet, as alot of the time the animal is neglected and dumped

 

red dog:

That would have been a good question to raise with Bruce also ... a commercial like that costs money to produce. Airtime and ad space are extremely expensive. Can PETA afford all that if it can't even afford a vet?

 

Carolyn Bailey:

At this time, I'd like to move on to the 2nd stage of todays workshop in which we'd like to discuss next week’s chat with Kari Bagnall, founder and director of Jungle Friends Primate Sanctuary, a non-profit organization offering a safe haven for monkeys in need of permanent sanctuary care. 

 

red dog:

Sounds great.

 

Roger Yates:

Don't you volunter at this sanctuary, Tim?

 

Will

its where he monkeys around

 

Tim Gier:

I have to say that I won't be an objective participant in next week's chat, I do volunteer at the sanctuary and Kari is a remarkable and dedicated woman.

 

Roger Yates:

No, he does that in ARZone, Will.

 

Tim Gier:

ARZone is a regular barrell full of monkeys!

 

Will

ha!

 

Tim Gier:

Kari is a staunch supporter of animal rights, a long time vegan and a tireless advocate and activist.

 

Debbie Blundell:

The sanctuary sounds extraordinary

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Kari and Jungle Friends will be featured in Shannon Keith's upcoming film, Sanctuary. Which will be released early in 2012

 

sky

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgyZCgw6kdw

 

Tim Gier:

Thanks Sky!! I loved that show as a kid - big surprise, huh?

 

Will

I love stubble

 

Carolyn Bailey:

OK, shall we move on and focus on the last topic for today?

Your Zone ~ Here’s your opportunity to ask questions of and about ARZone, and make suggestions for where the site is heading in the future. Think of it as your chance to provide us with the feedback we need to make ARZone as effective as it can be.

To start things off, what you do think about ARZone hosting such guests as Colin Blakemore, who doesn’t believe in animal rights, or Matt Ball, who seems not to consider animal rights as important?  Is it important to hear these voices?

 

Will

i know a few people who were dead agin Blakey as a guest

 

Mangus O’Shales:

i learned something in both those chats

 

Roger Yates:

Well, we knew Blakemore would be controversial, as was Sztybel for different reasons.

 

Mangus O’Shales:

Blakemore didn't seem like an evil monster to me at all and he seemed really bothered by what he did, even though he thinks it was good to do it

 

Roger Yates:

I think the big point for us is that we think a "chat" is the start of something rather than the whole event.

 

Mangus O’Shales:

Matt Ball seemed real to me, like a good guy trying the best he can to do something good. Maybe I just see good in people?

 

Roger Yates:

For example, Gary Francione insists that an ARZone Guest Chat is a "canned event." In this he is wholly wrong

 

 

Brooke Cameron:

I think if we're serious about education, it's important to understand perspectives which are vastly different to our own

 

Tracy Horne:

well said Brooke

 

red dog:

That's pretty unconstructive ... I can see the value in what you're doing, but I wonder if Blakemore could have been challenged a bit more to defend his speciesist ideology.

 

Debbie Blundell:

So true, Brooke

 

Brooke Cameron:

Roger, Gary Francione is more interested in being untruthful about those he is unable to control than actually learning what an ARZone chat entails, so I'm not sure his criticism is valid

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I found Matt Ball's chat to be educational as well. I thought Matt said some things which surprised me, but not all in a negative way

 

Fifi Leigh:

And educate others on how different people think, no matter what the reasons are for their views.

 

sky

People say that Colin Blakemore is evil -but he sounded like he had thought about things deeper than most do.

 

red dog:

He's a spin doctor ... of course he wants to project a positive image of himself.

 

Mangus O’Shales:

Most of what i've read on Gary Francione's website is him complaining about everybody else all the time, so I don't go there much anymore.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

There have been comments that Colin has his position worked out in regards to seeming kinder than he is. As red dog said.

 

Fifi Leigh:

It is marketing and promoting himself

 

Debbie Blundell:

It is about understanding what we are doing is not about us, but about the animals.  It isn't about your idea and no one else's idea.  Different ideas together can truly come together positively

 

red dog:

By Blakemore's speciesist ideology, I meant the weak responses he gave about other animals having less moral "worth" than humans. That was pretty weak, and I think we can all see it.

 

red dog:

Could ARZone have pushed him a little harder to see it too?

 

Tim Gier:

Blakemore honestly believes two things, at least. One is that animals don't have rights, and the second is that human beings benefit greatly by certain medical experiments on animals.

 

Roger Yates:

Yes, but that is exactly what Robert Garner says, too, red dog.

 

Fifi Leigh:

he was probably desperate for a job, and his research paid him well.

 

red dog:

I remember the chat with Robert Garner and I don't remember him putting it exactly that way …

 

Tim Gier:

Given all this, was it a mistake to have Blakemore in ARZone for a chat?

 

Roger Yates:

Hi, Brooke - I think the truth is that Francione's theory of animal rights is the best we've ever seen. Whether his core supporters do a good job with it is ENTIRELY another matter.

 

Brooke Cameron:

I agree with you, Roger. I wasn't arguing that point. I was referring to his unfair and uneducated criticism of those he has personal vendettas against

 

Fifi Leigh::

it is good to bring everything out in the open and educate others on different views.

 

red dog:

Garner wants to stop most (all?) vivisection, doesn't he?

 

Roger Yates:

I think Szytbel was more of a mistake, Tim!!

 

red dog:

Roger: Why???

 

Fifi Leigh:

so animal activists know what kinds of people they are dealing with, and are better able to prepare for better and more productive activism that will work

 

Roger Yates:

about Szytbel?

 

Tim Gier:

Yes, red dog, he does, if I recall correctly.

 

Tim Marshall

Im glad both blakemore and sztybel were present.

 

red dog:

Yes, why are you so hostile to David Sztybel?

 

Roger Yates:

I'm not hostile to Sztybel, red dog. It was my idea to invite him....

 

Brooke Cameron:

Why was David Sztybel a mistake, or even controversial?

 

Roger Yates:

he had written a blog post saying, "Am I obsessed with Gary Francione, no" and said he would move on to other things - like "liberation sociology" which interested me however, he is clearly still obsessed with Gary Francione. I hoped that he had REALLY moved on.

 

Brooke Cameron:

In that case, it sounds like David was an ideal guest fro ARZone, considering no-one could have known of David's “obsession” until his chat was underway.

 

Tim Gier:

I thought David missed an opportunity in his chat. His first response was 17 pages long and the argument he makes in it is not at all easy to follow.

 

Tim Marshall:

in hindsight you are probably correct to a degree Roger ... even a friend of mine who subscribes to his theory was really peeved to see the content and said "he blew it"

 

Roger Yates:

Hi Tim (Marshall) - yes, I agree, he really blew it. Great shame I think.

 

sky

Yes, Davis Sztbel let himself down, didn't he?

 

red dog:

He couldn't answer *without* referencing Francione, considering the nature of the questions.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Exactly, red dog!

 

red dog:

I can't say it was wrong to have Blakemore on as a guest, but I'm concerned that people may be buying in to his propaganda.

 

Fifi Leigh:

i think it is good to have an interview with this Gary person

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Gary has been a guest in the past, Fifi.

 

Roger Yates:

This Gary person was on ARZone before - for 6.5 hours too!

 

Fifi Leigh:

i think i missed it

 

red dog:

Blakemore is deliberately manipulating people to protect the economic interests of vivisectors. I think Garner's interest in the issues is more detached ... he's trying to get people to consider different sides. Which doesn't mean I agree with all his conclusions.

 

Roger Yates:

Here's a question for everyone. We are wondering about having a guest interview every two weeks -and these "workshops" inbetween. This is to let us discuss guests' ideas more deeply. Make sense?

 

red dog:

That could be a good idea ... sure.

 

Debbie Blundell:

Great idea

 

Carolyn Bailey:

It was over a year ago, January last year

 

Roger Yates:

We should invite him back, Carolyn.

 

red dog:

Francione's ideas have influenced many animal advocates, including me, but I think it's good to consider different sides.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Well, unfortunately, I did invite him to come back, I also, along with Gene Baur invited him to a one-on-one discussion with Gene in ARZone, he declined both offers.  It was disappointing that he declined the offer to debate Gene, as he regularly cites his willingness to debate "anyone, anywhere, anytime."

 

Tim Gier:

If it's true that Francione has the best ideas for animal rights out there (and we can certainly argue about that), and if Francione is seen as the voice of abolition, then it makes sense that David would respond to his arguments.

 

But, having said that, he could have made a positive case for his own ideas without necessarily having to contrast everything he said against Francione

 

red dog:

Carolyn, I just saw your message above that GLF had declined to come back. That's really disappointing. Did he give a reason?

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Red dog, he was quite active in ARZone up until a short time ago, when he was asked to modify his aggressive behaviour in a blog post toward another admin. Gary took offence to this and started another tirade against ARZone, unfortunately.

 

Roger Yates:

I recall that Gary is now calling ARZone "a joke", we are now, apparently, welfarists

 

red dog:

So many politics between this site and the other site. It's very sad.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Yes, he chooses to do that in the privacy of his own forum, leaving no-one from ARZone the opportunity to enter into open dialogue about his unfair and uneducated attacks on ARZone

 

Tim Gier:

It is sad, red dog, but as Mangus mentioined earlier, Francione does seem to think that his reason for living is to criticize EVERYBODY in the AR movement.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I believe they're also calling The Vegan Society a joke these days as well as Huffington Post, and, well, anyone else who disagrees with Gary

 

Tim Marshall:

The arguments stand on their own merits here, Garys, Davids, Carols, Brucies! All’s fair!

 

Debbie Blundell:

Welfarists hmmmm?

 

red dog:

I like what ARZone has accomplished so far. I know you're constantly working to make it better and to come up with new ideas. I like the variety of chat guests so far.

 

Tim Gier:

Thank you, red dog. Carolyn has built a fantastic resource for us, and I am proud to be associated with her and ARZone.

 

Debbie Blundell:

Would not be anywhere else

 

Carolyn Bailey:

We think so too, Tim M, we believe our members are intelligent enough to participate in guest chats and absorb the information, being capable of drawing their own conclusions about our guests

 

Will

go Carolyn!!!!

 

red dog:

It's really too bad that other site has chosen to be cliquey and belittle others who are making an effort.

 

Tim Gier:

I usually get conclusions when they are drawn for me, preferrably with crayons. :-)

 

Debbie Blundell:

The reason ARZone works is because it is not about the people who put it together, it is about the animals

 

Roger Yates:

Yes, I agree Tim, Carolyn has done a great job with ARZone and should be congratulated.

 

Sadia

Carolyn :-)

 

Debbie Blundell:

Kudos to Carolyn :-D

 

sky

Carolyn!!!

 

Debbie Blundell:

This site is not ego run

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Gee, thanks! But Roger and Tim do a load of work too!

 

red dog:

All the admins are doing great work and are doing a lot to educate us. Thanks to all of you.

 

Debbie Blundell:

Well done to Carolyn, Roger and Tim

 

Sanjia

Indeed

 

Tim Gier:

Let's not forget Kate and Jason, the more silent partners who do so much behind the scenes.

 

Brooke Cameron:

Tim, you rock!

 

Roger Yates:

Hey, we should not forget the important work done by Kate and Jason - since this is tuirning out to be some sort of love in.

 

red dog:

Congratulations to Carolyn, Tim, Roger, Kate and Jason. :-)

 

Debbie Blundell:

Congratulations to Carolyn, Tim, Roger, Kate and Jason. :-)

 

Tim Gier:

So what about suggestions to make a good thing even better?

 

red dog:

I'll try to think of some. Constructive criticism is a good thing. Unfortunately the members of the other site have forgotten how to be constructive.

 

Tim Gier:

yup, red dog, that's certainly true.

 

Roger Yates:

What would make ARZone better for you?

 

red dog:

Well, as I said, Blakemore got away with a lot …

 

Tim Marshall

I came late, have we discussed the IT side, is there anything to discuss there ?

I.T. rather, not "IT"   :-!

 

Roger Yates:

Can you clarify, Tim?

 

red dog:

Maybe there could have been more "open chat" time so that he could have been challenged to defend himself …

 

Fifi Leigh:

More interviews with people who actually making an difference in animals and animal rights, to educate others on ways to be productive and get progess and help other activists move forward...

 

Roger Yates:

I agree with that, red dog - less pre-registered questions would be good.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Do you have any suggestions, Fifi?

 

Fifi Leigh:

i can’t think of anyone right now

 

Roger Yates:

Yes, who do YOU want as ARZone guests?

 

Fifi Leigh:

someone positive and actually doing stuff not into the rants

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Feel free to let us know if you do, Fifi Leigh:. Email or FB message me any time

 

Tim Gier:

I don't know how we could have really challenged Blakemore any more than we did. He doesn't think animals have rights, he agrees that his position will be seen by us as speciesist.

 

Roger Yates:

They'd all claim that, Fifi Leigh:!

 

red dog:

Maybe some more TNR volunteers

 

Tim Marshall:

Patty Mark of ALV

 

Fifi Leigh:

someone who can prove that they are doing positive stuff

 

red dog:

Great idea, Tim M!!!

 

Tim Marshall:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Liberation_Victoria

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Patty is great, Tim, I agree. I've been talking with Patty for a while now about her being an upcoming guest.

 

Fifi Leigh:

we can turn the interview into a profile on them

 

Tim Marshall:

How are members finding the access to the chat and website ?

 

Tim Gier:

Tim, we've changed it so that anyone can view the entire site before registering (which has always been a one-step & simple process). Folks do have to register to view & participate in the chat.

 

red dog:

Tim G: I mean called upon to explain why humans are "worth" more than nonhumans ... to defend that ideology and respond to criticisms out forward by Regan, Francione, etc.

 

Roger Yates:

I'm hopeful to get Tom Regan - still working on it.

 

Tim Marshall:

oooh Regan would be so good to get here.

 

red dog:

Roger: Great idea!

 

Carolyn Bailey:

We will also be publishing Richard Ryder's responses to his questions very soon

 

Roger Yates:

Yes, Tim, I so wanted Regan to see how his views have evolved over the years - will keep you posted on that one.

 

Tim Gier:

I understand what you're saying red dog. It is challenging within the chat format.

One of the things we are trying to do is get a guest to articulate their own positions, not so we can try to change their minds, or defend their views, but that so we have a record of their thoughts which we can then examine.

It's not really about how Blakemore can justify himself, it's about how we can understand the mindset of someone who holds his views so we can become better advocates.

 

Tim Marshall:

Agreed Tim, his position is a very relevant topic for ARZone - people can take away their own opinion after seeing all the guests respond to well written questions..

 

Carolyn Bailey:

It's an excellent resource to be able to go back to an ARZone chat and reference the position and comments of someone like Rob Garner or Paul Watson

 

Tim Gier:

But, being able to challenge some people more wouldn't be a bad thing either!

 

red dog:

Point taken, but more critical questions could influence readers' conclusions, I think.

 

Tim Gier:

Yes, I agree with you about that too, red dog. We are hoping that as time goes on more members will become engaged and ask more questions as well.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I agree red dog, we would love to receive more critical questions from members each week. We encourage all members to participate as much as possible

 

red dog:

You're right, problem is I'm not a morning person ... :-(

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Hah, particularly Sunday mornings!

 

Tim Gier:

Being able to talk with people from all over the world, who bring a unique perspective to these issues is fantastic, no matter what time of day it is!!

 

Roger Yates:

I think it's important to say that we think of ARZone as inclusive - we trust members of the animal movement, we do not think they need to be "injected" with the right knowledge....

I think ARZone is "getting there" - but we still have work to do.

 

Tim Gier:

So, Roger, you're saying that we don't follow a top-down hierarchical model, where the teacher dispenses wisdom to the waiting masses?

 

Roger Yates:

Don't forget, folks, 10-15 years ago we could not do ARZone, we could not talk globally every week - every day - to other animal advocates. I really hope we can use this new opportunity.

 

Yes, Tim, and I also do not think we see education as a one-way street, with those with the "knowledge" transmitting it to others. We think of things as a bit more complex than that.

 

sky

I agree - we all have views and they should be heard if possible. We need a friendly place to express them, no?

 

Debbie Blundell:

I understand completely what you are saying Roger.  I sit here and ponder how unique the internet is and how this would not have existed years ago and how ARZone is so awesome. By understanding each other, this can only help our animal friends’ future.

 

Tim Gier:

Rational discourse, which is what we say ARZone is all about, means that we can all learn from each other, when we put away our preconceptions and really listen to and value what others have to say.

 

Debbie Blundell:

Agree whole heartedly Tim

 

Tim Gier:

Thanks Debbie!

 

Debbie Blundell:

We all have value.  And by just throwing around ideas about what to do more in ARZone our animal friends can only benefit.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

At this time, I'd like to thank all participants for attending and contributing to this first workshop in ARZone.

We sincerely appreciate the feedback and suggestions from everyone.

 

sky

I think this workshop was great - thanks to everyone!

 

Mangus O’Shales:

thank you Carolyn, this was great!

 

Brooke Cameron:

This was great, and it was a great idea to critique Bruce's chat as well. I hope these workshops may continue in the future!

 

Will

Yeah i think ARZone can go from strenth to strength - go ARZONE!!

 

Tim Gier:

Agreed, Mangus, this WAS great!

 

Sadia:

Absolutely :-)

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Thanks to everyone!

 

Tim Marshall:

thanks all

 

Tim Gier:

Thanks to everyone who participated.

 

Roger Yates:

Many thanks to all contributors!

 

Carolyn Bailey:

There will be a transcript of this discussion available in a few hours, please feel free to comment on that, once published.

 

 

ARZone exists to promote rational discussion about our relations with other animals and about issues within the animal advocacy movement. Please continue the debate after a chat by starting a forum discussion or by making a point under a transcript.

 

 

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Comment by red dog on March 14, 2011 at 22:10
Possible topics for future chats: vegan human, dog and cat nutrition (not necessarily with the same guests); vets for animal rights; wildlife rehabilitation.

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