Animal Rights Zone

Fighting for animal liberation and an end to speciesism

Transcript of Fourth ARZone Workshop "Is Being Vegan Easy"

Transcript of 4th ARZone Workshop

“Is Being Vegan Easy”

7 May 2011 at:

6pm US Eastern Time

11pm UK Time and

8 May 2011 at:

8am Australian Eastern Standard Time


Part 1

 

 

Carolyn Bailey:

ARZone is pleased to present the fourth in our series of Member Workshops.

 

ARZone aims to host Member’s Workshops as an opportunity to involve all members in a conversation about issues and opinions raised in previous Guest Q&A sessions, in order to think critically about those questions and answers, to involve all members in open dialogue, to explore certain issues more fully, and to consider the ways we can all become more informed and better advocates for other animals.

 

The proposed topic for today’s session is “Is being Vegan Easy”

 

Thank you for joining us today to share your thoughts.

 

Before we begin, can we each share our initial reactions to this week’s topic question, is being vegan easy? Please respond “Yes,” “No,” or “Undecided” either here in the chat room or by sending a private message to the Animal Rights Zone account.

 

Cavall de quer:

Yes

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

NO

 

Michael T Tiedemann:

YES!

 

Tim Gier:

That depends

 

Will:

Yes

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Change, I agree with Tim

 

Mangus O’Shales:

No

 

Brooke Cameron:

Yes

 

Jason Ward:

Being vegan is easy to do - I do it every day.  I don't even think about it

 

Sky:

Yesish

 

Carolyn Bailey:

No

 

Barbara DeGrande:

Not entirely easy.

 

Roger Yates:

The answer is yes and no

:-D

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Thank you for all your opinions. We encourage free and open dialogue from all members, so please feel free to add comments at any time today.

 

Now, we’d like to focus on topics from some of our previous guest chats, beginning with Richard O’Barry who discussed some of the difficulties he faces in being vegan while living and working in remote regions of the world: “I live with this conflict constantly because I recognise that the fish has just as much right to life as the dolphin. But I put the dolphin in this sea pen and the dolphin has no ability to catch the fish himself. If I don't catch the fish for the dolphin and eat the same food myself, we all starve in the jungle together.”

 

What do you think?


Lisa Viger:

I have the same dilemma, because I live with cats who are not vegan.


Cavall de quer:

Why does Richard have to put the dolphins in the sea pen, please?

 

Brooke Cameron:

From Ric's transcript he seems to really struggle with this.

 

Sky:

This is an extreme case, isn't it. Someone in a jungle on a James Bond mission?


Tim Gier:

My daughter lives with two non-vegan cats.

Ric was rescuing dolphins from captivity and rehabilitating them at the time.

 

Lisa Viger:

I'd like to switch mine, Tim ... and will try, they're older though.

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Same with my dogs and I'm trasitioning them, at 10yo.  How's this gone for other's with older dogs?

 

Lisa Viger:

Cynthia, Dogs are easier to transition, they're not obligate carnivores. Cats basically are, because they need tyrosine. Tyrosine can be purchased as a supplement.


Michael T Tiedemann:

My dog Nemo is vegan! Has been for as long as I! We transitioned together!

 

Jason Ward:

That's really cool Michael

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

About the dogs, what's the Best Vegan food for them?

 

Michael T Tiedemann:

I feed Nemo Natural Balance and V Dog food both vegan formulas

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Thanks

 

Michael T Tiedemann:

and I also mix in some fresh vegetables


Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Great I'm on it

 

Cavall de quer:

Is fish all they could eat?


Carolyn Bailey:

The rehabilitation was deep in the jungle over a 3 month period


Emmanuel Mensah:

Hello


Mangus O’Shales:

Couldn't O’Barry bring vegan food with him if he wanted to? For himself i mean.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I think Ric could have taken food with him, yes, but I'm not sure he could've taken 3 months worth of food.


Will:

He could take vegan food for at least some of the time

 

Michael T Tiedemann:

I feel that if you are in a situation, ie "the deserted island" you really have no choice but to do what you can to stay alive. However, if I'm hungry all that's around is hamburger places, i will let my stomach growl til i get home!

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Ric's family are vegan, including his young daughter, this is something he really struggles with.

 

Tim Gier:

I agree Brooke, Ric did seem to understand the contradicition.

 

Cavall de quer:

Well, he's got a problem there - but most of us don't have to do this.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

That's true Cavall

 

Tim Gier:

What if a person had to work at a restaurant that sold animal products?


Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

I think the question is about is he a purist if he's catching/killing fish to feed the dolphin, correct?

 

Michael  T Tiedemann:

Yup!  An he is super healthy!

 

Tim Gier:

My son-in-law works at a large grocery store and says he would refuse to work anywhere but in the produce section where he is now.  That might limit his career options.

 

Jason Ward:

I had to do that Tim - the only work I could get a few years back was as a cook - I learned to cook meat and eggs and stuff - and apparently I was pretty good at it despite not being able to taste test it.

 

Tim Gier:

Thanks Jason, that is the kind of real world struggle I think lots of people, especially "new" vegans have to live through.

 

Cavall de quer:

The work problems seem to me to reflect the fact that veganism ties in to more general social concerns - like wage slavery, for example.

 

Tim Gier:

That's an interesting point Cavall

 

Lisa Viger:

Well, O'Barry's situation is definitely a conundrum. It really does come down to the dolphin or the fish. One will die in those circumstances.

 

Roger Yates:

The question for O'Barry is why prioritise dolphins?

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

O’Barry is in a horrible situation and I have much compassion

 

Barbara DeGrande:

In his case, it is a debt he feels he owes to the dolphins.

 

Michael T Tiedemann:

Well, dolphins have been his life's work Roger.  Since he was a trainer, he feels he needs to give back to the dolphins now that he found the err of his ways

 

Lisa Viger:

Right. And it's an either/or situation. Kill a fish (many fish, actually) or let the dolphin die.

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

There is a No Win in this situation

 

Susannah:

This is why we need in-vitro meat and fish to be developed

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Ric prioritises dolphins because he feels responsible for the dolphin captivity industry

 

Cavall de quer:

Perhaps he should train some fish, then he'd have an obligation to them, too.

 

Roger Yates:

I understand his history but that does not answer fundamental questions. He owes dolphins but not fishes?

 

Susannah:

So as to be able to care for carnivores if they are in need

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Ric also doesn't believe the life of a dolphin is more valuable than that of a fish, as he stated in his ARZone chat.  Well, yes, he does believe he owes dolphins

 

Tim Gier:

That's what he says, but he doesn't eat dolphins.

 

Roger Yates:

Carolyn - his actions say that he does.

 

Cavall de quer:

We're into personal beliefs, now, then?

 

Lisa Viger:

I kind of see it this way ... the dolphin would be killing and eating fish if he had been left in the wild. I don't have a problem with that. I don't know why the world is set up that way, but it is and that's OK. The dolphin needs to eat fish.  We humans don't need to eat animals.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

That's right, Lisa

 

Tim Gier:

That's right Lisa, the dolphins do what dolphins do.

 

Will:

Is that dolphin do-do Tim?

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Interesting point I'm assuming that dolphins and fish can't eat a Vegan diet, no one answered this question, but I'm assuming we all think we know the answers?

 

Cavall de quer:

How much rehabilitation do dolphins need?

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Ric has a choice of leaving the dolphins in their prisons and having them eat fishes, or rescuing them and at least freeing them, and have them eat fishes.

 

 

Lisa Viger:

So, as regettable as it is, I'd say giving the dolphin fish may be the least harmful action.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I agree, Lisa

 

Tim Gier:

I agree Carolyn, and I don't really have too much of a problem with him feeding fishes to dolphins.

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Why doesn't he set the dolphins free?  Did I miss this?

 

Carolyn Bailey:

He is rehabilitating them, so they can be set free.

 

Lisa Viger:

I don't think they can be set free after that long, Cynthia.

Oops, I meant to say they need to be rehabilitated before they're set free :-)

 

Roger Yates:

The issue is not him killing fishes for dolphins, it is killing fishes for himself.

 

Cavall de Quer:

But he has a problem, himself?

 

Tim Gier:

Yes, of course you're right Roger.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

There is a blog post in ARZone about his success in setting about 70 dolphins free on this very mission he spoke about in ARZone ~ http://arzone.ning.com/profiles/blogs/70-dolphins-to-swim-free

 

I think the issue is whether he does have other choices, whilst deep in the jungle for 3 months

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Is the issue he's eating fish and if he is then he isn't a Vegan OR is it that he's unsure about feeding the fish to the dolphins?

 

Cavall de quer:

jungle? dolphins?

 

Carolyn Bailey:

For me, the issue is what Ric is eating himself. I don't think the dolphins eating fishes is a real issue at all.

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

OK so if the ONLY thing he has to eat are the fish I don't have an issue with this at all

 

Eugene Farberov:

it seems to be the whole dolphin issue is getting a disproportionatly large amount of attention. We are talking about some 20-30 dolphins? There are many more farm animals being slaughtered in the meantime. I feel the public needs to be recalibrated

 

Cavall de quer:

Jane Goodall has been called down on this issue too.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I think the issue is also that, although Ric would like to be eating a vegan diet, he is not in a position to make that possible all the time, so it's a very difficult situation for him

 

Barbara DeGrande:

I think both Goodall and O'Barry are in their seventies.

 

Tim Gier:

I agree with you Carolyn, and I guess what it comes down to is whether Ric really does all he can do. Only he can know that, right? We ought not to judge, I suppose.

 

Cavall de quer:

Surely it's impossible, without knowing the whole circumstances, to opine on this:

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

If his survival is dependent upon his eating whatever he needs to survive then he needs to do whatever he needs.  I agree with Tim.  Judge not

 

Cavall de quer:

Could he do the job some other way, different sort of activism etc etc etc

 

Roger Yates:

It was not a question of his survival.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I disagree, Roger. I think it was a question of his survival. If he doesn't eat, he doesn't survive

 

Sky:

Carolyn, you seem to be saying RO needs to eat fishes to survive. Surely not!

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Cavali, Ric's activism focuses on rescuing and rehabilitating dolphins. He does this because he feels responsible for the industry. That won't change.

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

So, we all must do the best we can to eat a plant based diet first and foremost and if our survival is dependent upon eating other animals we must make that decision and other's not judge us.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

If he is deep in a "3rd world" jungle without any food, I do believe he does

 

Roger Yates:

HIs survival was not in doubt!

 

Carolyn Bailey:

What would you suggest he eat under those circumstances in order to survive?

 

Cavall de quer:

What country are we talking about, as a matter of interest?

 

Sky:

So - don't go there!

 

Carolyn Bailey:

He was in SE Asia, I believe

 

Cavall de quer:

"3rd world jungle"?

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I believe Ric stated he would be in a "3rd world" jungle, yes

 

Roger Yates:

I think it would have been possible to provide vegan foods for the duration. Certainly for the beginning of the "trip." Why not rehabilitate until the vegan food runs low and then bugger off?

 

Carolyn Bailey:

That would defeat the purpose of being there. The dolphins would die.

 

Mangus O’Shales:

I bet he wouldn't use slaves to help save dolphins, even if there was no other way to do it. Would he?

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Ric, do your best, try to eat a plant based diet, grow your own food, if you need to do so to survive.  Maybe explore how to grow food where you are living and educate yourself.  What about the China Study? Ric can't grow his own food??

 

Susannah:

If he had been feeding dolphins to orcas and eating them himself, I'm sure everybody would be outraged.

 

Tim Gier:

Good point Susannah

 

Cavall de quer:

Surely it's Richard's perception of his situation that needs a bit of unpacking, isn't it?

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I don't think it would be any different, Susannah. But I certainly see your point.

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Let's deal with the first and most important issue and that's Ric's food choices and survival!!

 

Jason Ward:

How much of a person's diet is for survival? Most people eat what they eat because they enjoy the experience of that they are eating.

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Not so when you become a Vegan, Jason

 

Jason Ward:

I've been vegan 23 years

 

Tim Gier:

I love to eat

 

Jason Ward:

I love food - and I love preparing it - its a fantastic voyage

 

Will:

I eat to live

 

Michael T Tiedemann:

i have to agree, i love to eat too :-)

 

Cavall de quer:

Richard's motive has been stated to be reparation to the dolphins for his previous involvement in their exploitation - but these aren't the same dolphins, it's not like giving back stolen goods to their owners, so the reparations a bit in his head,  isn't it?

 

Tim Gier:

Yes, you're right, Cavall

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

 I am a Vegan for the animals, and I was a pescatarian, mostly vegetarian. It's very hard to eat as a new Vegan, esp out to eat.  I gave up many foods I Love, most were not plant based

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Perhaps it is, Cavall. But it's what he feels he needs to do

 

Cavall de quer:

Back to his feelings again...

 

Tim Gier:

I think he feels sort of responsible for the whole industry, as though he created it himself. But, in the end, he's harming some animals for the sake of other animals.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

He does believe he created the dolphin captivity industry, Tim

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Cavall, his feelings are what dictate his actions

 

Cavall de quer:

Not feelings alone, surely? His veganism must have a rational base, if nothing else?

 

Tim Gier:

That's the thing though, he's not vegan

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

I admire his dedication and efforts to right what wrong he knows he did. There is no right answers here with regards to feeding the dolphins.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I agree, Cynthia

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Thanks Carolyn

 

Cavall de quer:

But he seems to be torn two ways by his "feelings" and unable to find a way through. He clearly thinks he's acting wrongly in some respects - what about a straight utilitarian weigh-up?

 

Tim Gier:

I agree, perhaps we should move on to another question on this topic? Is that ok with everyone?

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Yes, let's move on

 

Sky:

Let’s move on

 

Tim Gier:

Okay....Matt Ball talks about being consistent when it comes to what our children might eat as a guest at someone’s birthday party:  “Our choices aren’t important because they conform to a certain philosophy or because they meet a certain human definition. Rather, the importance comes from our choices’ consequences: the actual impact we can have on reducing the animals’ suffering.

 

What about this? How do we deal with things like childrens birthday parties and how important is consistency of the kind Matt is referred?

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

I think we need a mentor program for us New Vegans... I need so help and if we made it easier, maybe more people would remain Vegan and become Vegan?

 

Will:

This is Vegan Outreach’s purity stuff, isnt it?

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Will explain pls

 

Will:

Don’t they say that consistency is not that important?

 

Tim Gier:

Yes, that's it. Vegan Outreach says that it is not so important that we make sure that our kids don't eat ice cream, what matters is reducing suffering.

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

It's all the same, right? Ice Cream is Suffering

 

Will:

I can see that but if we put it into a human rights picture, then what do we say then?

 

Susannah:

The message we send out to non-vegans at the kids party is important

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Absolutely agree, Susannah!

 

Michael T Tiedemann:

Reducing suffering is what ALL the WELFARE groups say.  If they said to be as consistent as possible and be VEGAN over VEGETARIAN, they would lose money from donors.

 

Cavall de quer:

- and confusing for the vegan parents' offspring, too, perhaps?

 

Michael T Tiedemann:

It's not as important to be consistent when you are making money off the message

 

Roger Yates:

I agree, Michael, if you are saying that there is more going on when groups propound this view.

 

Michael T Tiedemann:

No one can bee 100% pure, but we can do the best we can with the daily decisions we make.

 

Cavall de quer:

But it's sad when vegans get divided over this stuff, even though it's inevitable, humans being what they are.

 

Trent Engelhart:

I think if you're trying to help kids understand veganism, the most important thing they should be shown is that the point isn't to freak out and refuse to eat if a knife with butter accidentally touches your plate, ice cream isn't a monster.

 

Sky:

Is a kid who eats dairy ice cream now and then a vegan who does that or not a vegan at all?

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Vegans don't eat animal products

 

Susannah:

Sky, I would say a kid of vegan parents.

 

Trent Engelhart:

I'd say a kid who eats dairy ice cream "now and then" isn't vegan, but a kid who has no real worldview or understanding of veganism or what they eat yet

 

Susannah:

It's important to show that vegans aren't party poopers who won't even let a kid have ice-cream at a birthday party.

 

Tim Gier:

Vegans don't eat animal products when they know it and can help it.

 

I may disagree with some of what Vegan Outreach says and does, but I don't think Matt Ball is in it for the money.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

That's true too, Tim, but they're still not vegan when they eat animal products. I agree on Matt Ball, I think Matt is a genuine person and doing the very best he can for other animals

 

Tim Gier:

Me too Carolyn, he's seems like a decent and genuine person.

 

Susannah:

I saw a video on this, a vegan girl growing up. Her parents used to phone up beforehand to find out what the food would be at the party, and her parents would let her take vegan versions of everything   vegan ice-cream, vegan cake, so she wouldn't miss out. Also, her mother made spectacular cakes so she was always really popular at parties!

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Hah! :-)

 

Roger Yates:

:-)

 

Tim Gier:

sweet!

 

Cavall de quer:

The party-poopers argument is often applied to Christmas turkey - surely the point is we should be trying to ditch the association between killing/suffering and human enjoyment?

 

Tim Gier:

My daughter is deathly allergic to mushrooms, so when she was little we always had to make doubly sure that her food was okay. Why is it different when a child is vegan?

 

Cavall de quer:

One of my sisters-in-law brought her children up not to eat sweets etc, because she thought they were bad for them - no-one called her a party-pooper or a bad mom!

 

Barbara DeGrande:

But isn't what Matt saying that veganism is difficult?

 

Cavall de quer:

I should think child-rearing adds a certain degree of dificulty to the process!

 

Tim Gier:

I think he's really saying that it's not so important all the time to be "strict" about it.

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Along with the AR reason for eating a plant-based diet, are the health and environmental issues. I think we need to give the kids alternatives to go to their parties to share and help other's learn how tasty Vegan treats can be too..

 

Susannah:

Veganism can be difficult in social situations, it's not difficult in itself.

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

YES

 

Trent Engelhart:

I think it depends on what "difficult" is referring to, like difficulty in maintaining a diet ultra similar to a non-vegan one might be difficult

 

Roger Yates:

I think he implies that at least, Barbara. The issue here seems to be that VO take the reality that we cannot by 100% vegan and use that as an excuse for not being.

 

Barbara DeGrande:

And is it not true that relationships may be difficult for a vegan?

 

Roger Yates:

I agree with the thrust of what Will said. Put all this into human context and then we'd be appalled.

 

Trent Engelhart:

I don't find veganism difficult because 1. I'm not in a 3rd world jungle with finite supplies, 2. I'm not obsessed with a particular food i.e. bacon, cheese

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Eating out is Very hard! And eating with non-vegan friends at their homes is hard, even if they love and care about you.  I live in NVA

 

Cavall de quer:

NVA?

 

Adam Little:

No Loving Hut guys? :-)

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Northern Virginia, right outside of DC

 

Yes, just went there for the first time and LOVED it!! Loving Hut has the Best Sweets

 

Adam Little:

I agree... best chocolate cake I've ever had

 

Trent Engelhart:

I think there's a Loving Hut in Brighton

 

Tim Gier:

Loving Hut is putting on a vegan cooking class here in Gainesville next weekend!

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Great!!

 

Cavall de quer:

Hardest thing for us is men's shoes.

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

MooShoes on line in NYC Also, look on Zappos for shoes

 

Cavall de quer:

Mail order from the US is a bit pricey - also difficult to size shoes at a distance.

 

Cavall de quer:

I live in Barcelona, until recently very un-vegan, but getting better all the time, and I'm amazed at how helpful e-g- colleague at parties are!

 

Adam Little:

I agree that veganism means abstaining from all animal products that are avoidable in a pervasively speciesist society.  Everyone seems to draw their own line though. The one I see us particularly being divided about is animals used in film.

 

Roger Yates:

Adam - do you mean Hollywood here or the gory videos animal advocates send around?

 

Adam Little:

I meant Hollywood actually. It seems the lines we draw are arbitrary but most people won't see a film like Seabiscuit but will watch one that depicts characters eating animal products.

 

Trent Engelhart:

There's an advert for the film Dolphin Tale, about the dolphin who got a prosthetic tail, and it seems to advocate "dolphin therapy" in the ad

 

Cavall de quer:

Espadrilles, of course!

 

Adam Little:

I always think about it because I love film

 

Then again... it might be like saying one likes cheese...

 

Cavall de quer

Oooh, yes, Adam, and doesn't it spoil films when you notice the animal content!

Also I'd like to re-write Harry Potter with vegan meals in Hogwarts!

 

Adam Little:

Yes... the Dark Knight actually I don't like watching because they use horses. And again it's hard for me to draw that line How do wizards kill their animals you think... oh man... I guess Rowling left out that part... :-)

 

Trent Engelhart:

Dolphin Tale sounds like a nice story, but I don't know how to feel about the animal "actors" involved, or their depiction of the dolphin "helping" sick children or injured people

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

What to do with all my non-vegan clothing and shoes?

 

Pablo Fernández-Beri

Hi there! finally I got this plug-in fixed!

 

Tim Gier:

Hi Pablo!!

 

Cavall de quer:

Those moments when the characters wander through the market and then you notice there's an ox on a spit in the background

 

Adam Little:

In Harry Potter?

 

Cavall de quer:

No, some odd film I saw

 

Tim Gier:

I suspect that every movie and TV show is catered by folks who serve the actors and crew the bodies of other animals.

 

Adam Little:

Exactly Tim

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Suggestions??

 

Cavall de quer:

I've just finished an opera where I had to wear a dress covered with feathers - and always leather shoes...

 

Adam Little:

Had to?

 

Tim Gier:

Can we remove ourselves from the world?

 

Cavall de quer:

- wage slavery again.

 

Adam Little:

*poof*

Crap

Guess not

 

Barbara DeGrande:

Ha!

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

What have all you Vegans done with your old animal clothing and shoes??

 

Cavall de quer:

Worn them out around the house

 

Barbara DeGrande:

Donated to animal causes.

 

Adam Little

Honestly... I threw them away... I was a little emotional

Just watched Earthlings you see

 

Susannah:

Same here, wear them in the house or garden, where no-one sees so I am not 'promoting' them etc.

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Yes, I feel upset now and don't want to wear them or to waste them, I'm sick about it

 

Cavall de quer:

Put them away until something better suggests itself

 

Trent Engelhart:

I'd say donate them because they've already been made and bought, someone who is homeless or trying to get back on their feet, who is already not vegan, could use them but I don't know.

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

I thought about selling them and donating the money to a AR group, but that seems to promote the wrong cause

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I did that too, Cavall

 

Cavall de quer:

Sometimes Anima naturalis wants fur coats or leather jackets for demonstrations in the streets  - that's probably a good use

 

Barbara DeGrande:

I know someone who buried them, out of respect.

 

Adam Little:

I like that idea

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

I like both of these ideas, Thanks!!

 

Adam Little:

Ever seen that video where the person bought a chicken from the supermarket and buried in a grave?

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

This is counter productive

 

Jordan Wyatt:

Adam, that video makes me physically sick. I cant watch it

 

Cavall de quer:

I think there's videos on youtube of those demos - they're good - people walking along wearing a fur coat, them someone appears, clubs them to the ground and rips the coat off - i know it's single-issue, but it's a good one, i think.

 

Jordan Wyatt:

I can handle Earthlings, but the idea of someone buying one of my friends, who'd been killed, touching their bare, plucked skin, cutting the plastic off, burying them. I find it revolting and I've buried fully feathered Chicken Friends before, the thought of touching the dead body of a killed Chicken...

 

Tim Gier:

I can't watch it either Jordan.

 

Adam Little:

I get her message... but still I feel it was unnecessary.

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Giving money to support the killer of the chicken? What!!??

 

Adam Little:

Hm?

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Buying a dead chicken and burying it, that's counter productive, don't you think?

 

Adam Little:

I do I understand where s/he is coming from though

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

I don't

 

Adam Little:

Well she thought she was giving expressing something profound... putting the bird to rest... etc.

 

Jordan Wyatt:

About the earlier talk of Harry Potter, the saving of "The Special Animal", while killing others, mention of dead rabbits, roosters hanging dead etc. I'm going to cover this on a future episode of my show, Coexisting With Nonhuman Animals, if anyone is interested in appearing, as a short audio clip, how we as Vegans feel about children reading these books, where everything is "dragon hide" "eye of newt"...I'd love to have you on, if you're interested in talking :-)  my email is jaywontdart@gmail.com , thanks, plug over! :-)

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Good on you, Jordan! :-)

 

Tim Gier:

Jordan, shameless self-promotion is my speciality :-)

 

Jordan Wyatt:

Tim, like stubble, I leave it to the professionals

 

Tim Gier:

:-)

 

Sky:

Is that stubleism?

 

Adam Little:

Notice how Ron became even more annoyed with Hermionie when she was concerned with that dragon in the wizard bank?

"Isn't House elves enough?" I adored how Rowling depicted the house elves actually

But she was so blind to the animal suffering in her own work

 

Cavall de quer:

If we don't want to get into a ghastly and pointless censorship programme, though, how are we going to deal with literature which describes what takes place in a speciesist world?  Jane Austen, Shakespeare,Dickens!

 

Adam Little:

I love fiction... but sometimes it's hard to cheer for your protagonist when they sit down and eat a steak

 

Cavall de quer:

Just so, Adam. Even people like China Miéville, who you'd think would be further down the line!

 

Jordan Wyatt:

I'm going to cover the elf issue, mention of "house elf LIBERATION", direct parallels to actual Animal Rights "movements"

 

Tim Gier:

I agree, the "easy going speciesism" that we are teaching our children through popular culture is a problem.

 

Jordan Wyatt:

Out of all pop culture I can think of, perhaps Harry Potter is the greatest example

 

Tim Gier:

And it doesn't make veganism any easier, does it?

 

Jordan Wyatt:

Being the only books most of this generation will ever read ;-)

 

Tim Gier:

Scary, that

 

Adam Little:

We have herbivorous animals as cartoon characters eating hot dogs!

 

Cavall de quer:

Still, we all managed!

 

Jordan Wyatt:

And so blatent in creating artificial distinctions, "the special animals", and "the ingredients" ie, a game where you steal an egg from a mother Dragon, and shes somehow "bad" for defending her nest :-)

 

Adam Little:

Don't even get me started on Pokemon

WHICH BTW recently had a game where there "liberators" of Pokemon

 

Tim Gier:

We have cartoon animals celebrating their own slaughter in advertisements

 

Cavall de quer:

like C.S.Lewis - "animals and "talking animals"

 

Jordan Wyatt:

Agree Cavall

 

Adam Little:

They were supposed to be an allegory to PETA

 

Jordan Wyatt:

Nut Lewis is no Harry Potter series ;-)  Why, theres no billion dollar movies there :-)

 

Cavall de quer:

- I thought there were?

 

Adam Little:

Lewis has some great quotes on this matter.

 

Cavall de quer:

He wrote beautiful English!

No-one would recommend not "letting" kids read non-vegan fiction, i suppose?

 

Trent Engelhart:

I think in Pokemon Black/White there's a PETA-y group and it turns out at the end that they're pawns being used to allow one guy to be the only one to use animals

 

Adam Little:

That's what I heard Trent

I don't many of us think about how barbaric Pokemon is though.

Gotta Catch Em' all!

 

Jordan Wyatt:

I dont agree with censorship Cavall, like American "classics" where The N Word will be replaced with "slave", I think its better to leave them as published, while using them as a "Teachable Moment"

 

Trent Engelhart:

I'm not sure if Pokemon Black/White is trying to villainise animal rights groups or not, but I grew up with Pokemon, the main characters are friends and teammates with the animals

 

Adam Little:

But of course... you take them UNWILLING from the wild

 

Trent Engelhart:

actually the main antagonist group is also friends and equals with their pokemon. they have a cat that talks and makes decision for them half the time

 

 

Trent Engelhart:

so I wouldn't go demonising Pokemon, when it comes to childrens shows or games and animal depictions

 

Adam Little:

Well really Trent... it doesn't make sense that the trainer and the animal are friends... seeing as constantly cause them to faint...

 

Trent Engelhart:

As a kid trying to be vegan, when I was 10-12 years old, I thought Pokemon was pretty nice in talking about the value of friendship and teamwork when it came to little animals so I wouldn't say all childrens franchises set off horrible ideas about animals for kids

 

Adam Little:

I thought the same Trent... but I see it as hypocritical now. Digimon was closer to an actual reciprocal relationship between human and nonhuman animals I believe

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I agree, Trent. One of my children watches Pokemon every day, but he knows that any animal use is wrong. I don't think that watching a cartoon on TV can make a child confuse the cartoon with reality

 

Jordan Wyatt:

welcome to 90's Cartoons Zone! :-)  Childhood memories for some of us :-)

 

Trent Engelhart:

I think you can pick apart almost anything, wearing all cotton clothing you're still endorsing killing mice and grasshoppers if we go far enough into picking it apart

 

Adam Little:

I'm not saying it will necessarily confuse them... I just don't like the show

 

Tim Gier:

Yeah, this whole conversation is passing right by me....

 

Roger Yates:

1990s! You had to be there.

 

Jordan Wyatt:

The thing about Pokemon being, people "catch" wild animals, make them fight, they "lose" when they FAINT from injury

 

Jordan Wyatt:

and this was actually based on "Pocket Monsters", on "insect fighting" in some countriesyet it became a multi billion dollar franchise, beloved by children everywhere

 

Adam Little:

That's what I'm saying Jordan.

 

Jordan Wyatt:

It’s actually rather worrying

 

Adam Little:

So damn odd

 

Trent Engelhart:

Sorry Tim, I'm still struggling to get over my Pokemon addiction at 19, Adam brought up Pokemon Black/White and I actually own the game.

 

Jordan Wyatt:

movies, soft toys, games, books, card games, tv shows

 

Trent Engelhart:

so I knew the quasi-PETA thing he mentioned

 

Tim Gier:

no worries, Trent. I'm learning something new!!

 

Adam Little:

I think it's important to observe and discuss these types of things appearing in popular media

 

Jordan Wyatt:

Trent, is this AR group in the game in audio? it will be in text right? it might deserve mention in a future show!  "how popular culture, based on making animals fight responds to "Animal Rights" movements"

 

Trent Engelhart:

it's text in the game, Jordan but I might be able to find audio from the tv show of the same group. I'm not sure though. I haven't watched the new show about it at all.

 

Jordan Wyatt:

it sounds very interesting to include, thanks Trent, I might like into it too

 

Trent Engelhart:

Not sure if they were going for "animal rights groups are stupid and being led by bad guys" or if it's more innocent

 

Adam Little:

I know Trent

 

Roger Yates:

In terms of these cultural products and markers, we are reminded, and we need to appreciate that we are the vegan freaks.

 

Tim Gier:

Melanie Joy said something about all about the difficulties we might have in reaching out to children in her chat. It fits in with what we're talking about right now. She said, “So we can raise consciousness among children, but what those children do with this information is dependent on what their parents determine should be done.”

So, having children and raising them vegan can be difficult, when the entire world they live in isn't vegan.

 

Adam Little:

Yes... And of course... they believe WE are indoctrinating our kids!

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Yes, just like religion...

 

Roger Yates:

Yes, Tim, the issues raised by M Joy are important for those doing education talks in schools - especially to young children.

 

Cavall de quer:

that's the censorship I meant

 

Sadia Rajput:

Agree Tim!

 

Tim Gier:

 It can be especially tough when the grandparents don't understand or support the parents.

 

Cavall de quer:

Must be the most difficult thing in veganism, I imagine

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I agree, Tim. Having children can make veganism a completely different thing for many people.

 

Roger Yates

Sociologically, peer groups become very important in terms of secondary socialisation. It is tough to be the kid who does not "fit in" - dangerous even.

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Why don't Vegan's add in health and the environment to help educate their kids about being Vegan???

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Veganism is not about one person's diet, it's about the life they live, which obviously includes their children and the dilemmas they face

 

Tim Gier:

I'm not even sure if the question "Is being vegan easy?" really makes sense.

 

Will:

Why not Tim?

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

I brought up The China Study, what about parent

 

Tim Gier:

Because being vegan is so complex, so tied into all facets of life, so integral to who we are or not speciesism is so prevelant

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Why is everyone ignoring health as another reason for being vegan and obesity is a major issue

 

Cavall de quer:

Are you a Judith Rich Harris fan, Roger?

 

Roger Yates:

She's a psychologist, right?

 

Cavall de quer:

Yes, very into peer group influence - quite an interesting read.

 

Roger Yates:

I think she's right about primary socialisation being key. But then secondary socialisation kicks in and then the fireworks begin.

 

Barbara DeGrande:

Yes

 

Adam Little:

Well Cyn... it IS possible to be healthy on a non-vegan diet

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I think health is a benefit of being vegan, but not a reason to become vegan

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

I'm a therapist who deals with obesity constantly

 

Tim Gier:

I think Roger says we're pioneers, and pioneers have to blaze a trail through hostile country to make the way easier for the ones who follow

 

Cynthia Stoud Southerland:

I think we might use ALL the reasons for being vegan, with compassion for animals first and foremost, health and environment

 

Sergio Tarrero:

Another problem with kids is divorced parents where one does not respect these sentiments. More trouble.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Absolutely, Sergio! It can be difficult to cope with a child who may live vegan in your home, and not elsewhere

 

Tim Gier:

I can only imagine Carolyn

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Yes and it must be hard if a child is allergic to wheat, etc

 

Sergio Tarrero:

Yes, my kids are getting mixed messages. I'm doing my best to educate them. They're still pretty young, 6 & 8, but they 'get it' much better than most adults I meet, who are extremely selfish.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I can understand Sergio. I have an 8 yr old who lives with me, but also spends time elsewhere, and he sounds much the same. He "gets it" too, but it's difficult when he's away - for him

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerand:

Why do Vegans keep ignoring leveraging the Health issue and environment to promote the cause??????

 

Sky:

Are vegans "ignoring" the health/environment issues?

 

Adam Little:

I mentioned that one can be healthy on a non-vegan diet Cyn, so it's not really something I like to focus on

 

Sergio Tarrero:

The health issues, the environment... and the economics of non-human animal use. Very very wasteful.

 

Adam Little:

I see the environmental and the ethical concerns as the same. When we harm the environment we harm ALL the animals within it Including humans.

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

I think many people would be moved to become Vegan for a variety of reasons and I dont' care what their reasons are if they change, however I will add in the AR reasons to encourage their change

 

Tim Gier:

George Monbiot used to advocate for veganism until somebody told him that animal agriculture wasn't really a big problem, so now he no longer advocates for veganism.

Monbiot is a high profile journalist who lots of people pay attention to

 

Adam Little:

Well Cyn... I don't see many people STAYING vegan solely for health reasons

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Cynthia, I find if people consider veganism for health reasons, they refer mostly to their diet, and when their health improves, they move away from their vegan diet

 

Adam Little:

Which they are likely to cheat on

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Agreed, Adam

 

Sergio Tarrero:

Yes... it seems to me that to stay vegan the motivation had better come from compassion and empathy.

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

George didn't do his homework.  Of course it's best to come from compassion and empathy as this is what we all believe

 

Cavall de quer:

2 a.m. here and I think I'd best say "goodnight" to everyone - it's been great, hope to repeat the experience soon.

 

Adam Little:

Have a great night

 

Michael T Tiedemann:

Absolutely. I think to go the distance with veganism, it HAS to be for the animals.  Going vegan for "health reasons" will end once you have regained your health. (For most people)

 

Adam Little:

So friendly here :-)

 

Michael T Tiedemann:

Goognight Cavall

--

Adam Little:

Heh... I'm not a parent though :-)

 

Roger Yates:

Yes, I think age is important. We're back to them "breaking free" of the family.

 

Sky:

I'd say it impossible at a certain age, Rog.

 

Trent Engelhart:

I'm not sure if it would be rebellion, or "bad" parenting examples, or what, but if you're a kid and acting vegan at home, go out and want to eat animals, you really don't care about animals and don't know why you live that way at home.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I think sometimes when schools or other institutions realise children are living vegan, they police them as well, at least in my experience that has occurred.

 

Tim Gier:

I do think children adopt most of the values of their parents, but at some point they are independent and will do as they best see fit for themselves.

 

Trent Engelhart:

At some point children are people too, and some people don't care for whatever reason.

 

Not that they always will be that way, but there's only so much you can do to affect how other people live, even if it's your kids. more often than not they wouldn't want to eat animals.

 

Adam Little:

And the thing about adopting parental values.. it typically helps if they are social norms If they are surrounded by Christians at church... they are likely to remain Christian This doesn't tend to happen with veganism

 

Trent Engelhart:

If your kid’s going non-vegan outside your home is an issue, I'd say your kids aren't vegan in the first place, they're not understanding or caring

 

Barbara DeGrande:

So what helps some kids break free from social norms?

 

Sadia Rajput:

Yes Barb my question exact!

 

Sergio Tarrero:

I'm just starting to run into problems with my kids... their mother, my parents, etc... because it hasn't been that long ago that I turned vegan myself.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I completely understand, Sergio. I think it's far more difficult with children who have not been raised vegan from birth

 

Adam Little:

I'm not sure if I agree with that Trent. Children rebell

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I agree, Adam.

 

Trent Engelhart:

At 10 years old I didn't want to eat animals. I probably did, I didn't know what whey was. I didn't know I had to know that, because I didn't know it existed. so I probably ate whey. but I didn't want to.

 

Trent Engelhart:

if your kids feel differently, it's just that: your kids feel differently

 

Adam Little:

First thing... I believe it helps to teach your children to have a critical mind

Question everything

 

Sergio Tarrero:

Yes, that's what I'm doing. Question where your food (and other stuff) comes from. All the time.

 

Adam Little:

Yes

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

I have great respect for the Vegan parents. It's hard enough being a vegan adult and not many social vegans to hang with, try teen male non-vegan stepsons, it's impossible!

 

Adam Little:

Why is it "good" to kill animals?

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

They don't want to talk about it, period!

 

Adam Little:

Non-vegan parents yelling at them that they are indoctrinating their child. I was raised vegetarian, all my mom's friends thought I was going to die

 

Trent Engelhart:

I don't remember when I discovered that I could be vegan. I remember when I first was upset about people eating animals, my cousins were teasing me because I cried over a parakeet dying. They were making jokes about chicken nuggets I was probably 8 years old and I made sure I never ate another bird, and then another cow, and another pig, and another _____________

 

Adam Little:

Interesting

 

Trent Engelhart:

There's only so much you can do when you don't know a lot of words though. You can't buy your own food, or cook, the most you can do is refuse food

 

Sergio Tarrero:

Most kids are so totally desensitized. Well, just like most adults. That to them the whole thing is a joke.

 

Adam Little:

Okay... sadly... I have to get off... sorry guys!  I have to meet my Mom because we’re going out of town for mother's day I enjoyed the chat.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Have a nice time, Adam!

 

Trent Engelhart:

Bye Adam

 

Tim Gier:

Thanks Adam!!

 

Adam Little:

Cheers everyone! Have a nice time...

 

Sergio Tarrero:

Cheers Adam

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

I won't buy or cook anything that isn't Vegan. I agree with Sergio, very Sad

 

Trent Engelhart:

I was actually hospitalised for an eating disorder. That has nothing to do with veganism though, that was a kid controlling what they eat without any education or anyone caring. I think kids are capable of caring as much as adults about what they eat and endorse for the same reasons. I don't think you need to be ultra paranoid about them suddenly wanting steak if they escape the house, unless they've misunderstood or not cared the entire time.

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Peer pressure is a reality esp for kids

 

Sergio Tarrero:

Yes

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I find kids are way more accepting of thinking about what they eat. I also find that young children like to please the adults around them, and will forfeit their own beliefs in order to please others

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

It starts in the home

 

Trent Engelhart:

I have friends trying to trick me into drinking coffee with milk, or lying saying their pasta salad is vegan, my friends are 18-25 and I've known some since I was pretty young. I don't have issues with suddenly not caring about how I live and the reasons I live that way, though

 

Sergio Tarrero:

But the main problem is the culture and the environment. Where I live (Southern Spain) all you can eat at most restaurants, that is actually vegan, is gazpacho soup (a type of tomato soup). I don't know how to tackle that huge problem.


Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Yes, as I said eating out is very hard here in the USA even not far from Wash DC. 


Tim  Gier:

Sergio, you raise an important point, we in America don't seem to realize the challenges people in other cultures face.

 

Barbara DeGrande:

And adding onto that, other family cultures too, as Cynthia mentioned.

 

Sergio Tarrero:

Yes. Our culture is meat and fish all over. And of course eggs and milk.

 

Trent Engelhart:

How do you walk the line between catering to all cultures, and making sure you have vegan food and a dead cow though?

 

Cynthia Stroud Southerland:

Unless you live in a community of other vegans, and that's almost impossible, today, but hope for tomorrow, it isn't easy being vegan at any age!


Sergio Tarrero:

Yeah. It ain't easy being green. :-)

 

 

 

Part 2 of the ARZone Workshop Transcript on "Is Being Vegan Easy" may be read here:

http://arzone.ning.com/profiles/blogs/transcript-of-4th-arzone-1


***************

 

ARZone exists to promote rational discussion about our relations with other animals and about issues within the animal advocacy movement. Please continue the debate after “chats” by starting a forum discussion or making a point under a transcript.

 


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