Transcript of Howard Lyman's Live ARZone Guest Chat

[Carolyn Bailey]

Transcript of Howard Lyman's Live ARZone Guest Chat

8 October 2011

3pm US Pacific Time

11pm UK Time

9 October 2011 

8am Australian Eastern Standard Time 

 

 

Carolyn Bailey:

ARZone would like to welcome Howard Lyman, as today’s Live Chat Guest.

 

Howard Lyman, known as the “Mad Cowboy” was a fourth generation family farmer for most of his life, until he transformed his small family farm into an intensive factory farm. In 1979 he was diagnosed with a tumor in his spine, and faced with the prospect of paralysis, vowed to return to non-chemical means of farming if he beat the cancer.

 

He survived an operation to remove the tumor and set out to transform his land into an organic farm, and in 1989, began to investigate Mad Cow disease, which was just becoming an issue in Great Britain, and, again facing health concerns, became a vegetarian and found his health improving, eventually becoming a vegan.

 

Howard has crusaded for years to change the way America produces its food and to change the way Americans think of their relationship to food and the environment, appearing on the Oprah Winfrey show in 1996, resulting in the infamous "Veggie Libel" case brought on by Texas ranchers.

 

He is the former Director of the "Beyond Beef Campaign" & the Humane Society of the United States' "Eating With Conscience" Campaign; past President of both the International Vegetarian Union, and EarthSave International; and is currently President of Voice for a Viable Future.

 

Howard co-authored the book Mad Cowboy (1998) and co-authored No More Bull (2005) and is the subject of two documentary films, Mad Cowboy and Peaceable Kingdom: The Journey Home. He also features in the  2005 documentary "McLibel" and the  2007 documentary "Meat The Truth".

 

Howard was awarded the Peace Abbey Courage of Conscience Award on April 12, 1997

 

Howard welcomes the opportunity to speak with ARZone members on a variety of topics today, would you please join with me in welcoming him to ARZone?

 

Jason Ward:

Welcome to ARZone Howard!!!

 

Sadia:

Hello Mr. Lyman! Welcome and Thank you for being here.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Welcome, Howard!

 

Barbara DeGrande:

Thanks for coming to ARZone, Howard!

 

Howard Lyman:

Howdy everyone! It's great to be here.

 

Sky:

Hello

 

Sharni Buckley:

Hello Howard nice to meet you

 

George Miler:

Hi Howard.

 

Brooke Cameron:

Welcome, Howard!

 

Roger Yates:

Hi Howard. Harold Brown, who is working cannot make it but asked me to pass on his best wishes.

 

Howard Lyman:

Thank you for that, Roger. Please tell Farmer Brown I miss him!

 

Matt Bowen:

Hi Howard!

 

Will:

hiya

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Howard will be responding to his pre-registered questions first, and then we’ll open the chat up for all members to engage him. Please refrain from interrupting Howard during the first session, and feel free to send a private message to an admin if you wish to address him at any time. This can be done by clicking on their names and selecting “Private Chat”.

I’d now like to ask Sharni Buckley to ask Howard his first question.

 

Sharni Buckley:

Howard, could you please tell us what it is that makes a fourth generation cattle rancher become one of the most sought after public speakers and advocates for other animals in the world?

 

Howard Lyman:

The only requirement to open your eyes is to become paralyzed from the waist down.

 

When I started out my goal was to be an agri-businessman. I could not spell it, but I knew that's what I wanted to be and it was not until I was paralyzed that I stopped and did an inventory of my effect on my environment. I realized the birds were dying, the trees were dying and the soil was becoming like concrete. That would probably never have happened if I had not become paralyzed.

 

Once I stopped and really did an inventory of what I was doing to the planet, there was no doubt in my mind that I had to change. I didn’t know what the change was going to be, so I started reading and it became abundantly clear to me that I was going to have to make major changes to my life.

 

When I did that, it was like falling off a cliff. Common sense was a very uncommon commodity. But, when I started on this path of becoming a vegan, (the only answer), there was no doubt in my mind that I had saved my life by changing my lifestyle.

 

Having the opportunity to share this information with people from the platform, has been  one of the greatest joys of my life. I would like to say now that the rest of my life, I am absolutely committed to the fact that no animal has to die for me to live. It is the most heartwarming thing that has ever happened to me.

 

Sharni Buckley:

Thank you Howard

 

Barbara DeGrande:

The next question will be one from Tim Gier, and will be asked by Roger Yates on his behalf. Roger?

 

Roger Yates:

In a talk you presented in Italy in 1997 (http://www.ivu.org/congress/euro97/my-name.html) , you said, “Our main job is not to turn them into vegans, but to get those carnivores out there to understand that every bite of meat not taken all over the world means greater opportunities for our children and our grandchildren.” Would you please explain what you meant, and whether you would say the same thing today?

 

Howard Lyman:

Not only would I say it again, it is more dire today than it was in 1997. If we look at planet Earth today, there is no doubt that the Earth will survive, but, in the direction we're going right now, there is a real question of whether the human species will survive.

 

We are heading, in my opinion, toward a cliff at 200 miles per hour. We need to change this direction in our lifetime if there is to be a future for our children and grandchildren.  The most telling thing that we can do today, is live our lives as we believe others should live theirs, and if we don't, I think we're going over that cliff.

 

Barbara DeGrande:

Thank you, Howard, for that response.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Thanks Howard. The next question comes from Sky. When you are ready Sky.

 

Sky:

You’ve said that if you were to advise people to make one change in their diet, it would be to eliminate dairy products. Could you please explain why?

 

Howard Lyman:

Thanks, Sky. The biggest health problems humans face today, heart disease, cancer, obesity, diabetes, every one of them, dairy products are a major causative agent in their growth. When I recommend people get off dairy, I do it because it is addictive. If you don’t think so just quit eating cheese. You will have the same reaction that comes from quitting smoking. And I'm convinved that if we can get people to quit dairy, the path to becoming vegan is like falling off a log.

 

Sky:

Can I do a follow up?

 

Howard Lyman:

Sure

 

Sky:

So, you are one person who does not say to people go vegetarian - but be as vegan as possible?

 

Howard Lyman:

I'm convinced that, with the shape the planet is in environmentally, we don't have time to fool around and just become a part time vegetarian. For me, the sooner folks become vegan, the happier I am.

 

Sky:

Thanks - you are so cool :-)

 

Howard Lyman:

You're welcome, and thank you!

 

Barbara DeGrande:

Next up is Brooke Cameron. Brooke, when you are ready!

 

Brooke Cameron:

Hi Howard, you’ve been involved with animal agriculture on a small scale, and in intensive animal agriculture as well. Do you believe that the problem with eating and using other animals is the way in which they are treated and confined in large factories now and the chemicals and hormones used, or the fact that they are being used by humans at all?

 

Howard Lyman:

Hi Brooke. There is no doubt that factory feedlots are an abomination, and should be abolished ASAP. That does not mean that all family farmers are doing things correctly. But their transgressions are miniscule compared to factory farmers. But, believeing we can purchase flesh from a family farm that is produced environmentally correctly, does not absolve us of the problem of being a carnivore.

 

I believe family farms have the potential to become the main source of feeding humans and have the potential to be the road map, or the saving of the planet. The most important thing for me is to show the 20% of the people who are still thinking on the planet, that being a vegan is the only answer.

 

Brooke Cameron:

Thanks Howard

 

Howard Lyman:

You're welcome

 

Barbara DeGrande:

Our next question will be from our own Jason Ward. Mr. Ward?

 

Jason Ward:

Thanks Barbara - Hello again Howard. You were involved in the McLibel trial, could you please explain what this trial was about, your part in it and the outcome?

 

Howard Lyman:

The McLibel trial was a direct attempt by multi national corporate powers to show that might was right. The problem is that they ran into individuals with more might and right than they ever thought existed. They ran into people that did not know the word "quit" existed, and we should take heart from the fact that we, as an individual, can make a difference.

 

If you don’t think so, then spend a night in a tent with a mosquito. One CAN make a difference. The multi national corporations learned from the McLibel trial, that they were opening up a can of worms and allowing individuals a voice in the world.

 

I don't think we'll ever see again a situation where a corporation will make a major mistake of thinking that just because they have unlimited financial resources, they can defeat people that thrive on principle.

 

Jason Ward:

Thanks Howard- Barbara DeGrande has the next question - please go ahead when you're ready Barb

 

Barbara DeGrande:

Thanks Jay. On your website, you are quoted as saying, "I would love to see feedlots closed and factory farming end. I would love to see more families return to the land, grow crops for our own species, and raise them organically." I agree, but the question is: how do we get there when so many people are unaware of the reality of our unsustainable lives or the plight of animals, and most folks avoid change when possible?

 

Howard Lyman:

Great question, Barbara!

 

Barbara DeGrande:

:-D

 

Howard Lyman:

Remember that 80% of the people in the world are brain dead. Our job is not to educate Joe Sixpack. Our job is to educate the 20% of the people who are still thinking. The only thing that has ever changed human behavior is crisis, and there is no doubt that we are heading toward the greatest human crisis in recorded history.

 

Our job is to be prepared with the information to change the behavior of the 20% of folks who are thinking, and when that happens, when we educate that 20%, the other 80% will follow. Let's just hope that that occurs before we fall off that cliff.

 

Barbara DeGrande:

Follow up okay?

 

Howard Lyman:

Sure, please do.

 

Barbara DeGrande:

I do understand that we will not reach everyone. But as someone who recently started a vegan advocacy group, I wish there was a way to reach the right folks rather than a shotgun approach. Ideas?

 

Howard Lyman:

You can tell which people you want to spend your time with because the ones who are a waste of time, you can see their eyes roll up and their eyes slam shut. The most important thing you can do is the way you live your life. Many more people will learn from observing what you're doing, than will ever learn from what you have to say. Live your life as you feel it in your heart, and the next time you turn around, you'll find you're like the Pied Piper.

 

Barbara DeGrande:

Thanks so much for that. Patience is not my strong suit I am afraid!

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Thanks Howard. I'd like to ask you a question myself now. When you decided to stop eating other animals, how did your friends react to that? Were you comfortable socialising with the same people you had spent time with prior to making these changes? Were there any specific difficulties you faced, and if so, how did you overcome those?

 

Howard Lyman:

When it became public that I was a vegan, my home town newspaper called me a turncoat! The most important thing in what we're engaged in is saving the planet. If that isn't worth losing some faint hearted friendsover, I don't know what is.

 

I must admit, I agree that I'm not as concerned about what somebody says about me asI am that they spell my name correctly, and refer to me as a vegan. If that happens, I have won, because I've put that information inside their heads and they'll never be able to remove it.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

All power to turncoats! Thank you Howard.

 

Howard Lyman:

You're very welcome, Carolyn

 

Barbara DeGrande:

Next up is the ever vigilant Roger Yates, to ask a question on behalf of the missing Tim Gier.

 

Roger Yates:

In an article in the Vegetarian Times from 1995, you’re quoted as saying “"I'm enough of a realist to know that [an end to animal slaughter] won't happen in my lifetime," he says. "If I'm able to help move us to a more sustainable, humane agriculture, I'll be happy. Family farms are generally much more humanely and sustainably run."

 

Leaving aside the question about whether or not family farms are more humane than factory farms, do you still believe it would be better for us to move away from factory farms and towards family farms? Also, if you still advocate for this position, do you get any negative feedback from other advocates because of it?

 

Howard Lyman:

The important thing to rememberis that none of the factory farms are humane, and not all of the family farms are humane. But, all of the agriculture that follows an organic approach, not only are they humane, they are a great model for everybody to follow.

 

I just wish that the vegetarian community could realise that they still have a sizeable part of their pocketbook supporting what they profess to oppose. Vegan power!

 

Roger Yates:

Thanks Howard. Next up is Barbara Degrande. Barb...

 

Barbara DeGrande:

Thanks, Roger. I heard a talk you gave (published online) regarding the decrease in the number of trees, of rainforest, of fish in the oceans, of wildlife, of species of plants and animals, while there is an increase in the number of humans, extent of desertification, and tons of carbon in the atmosphere. Somehow, handing out leaflets on the weekend to a few hundred people doesn't seem adequate in these dire times. Is there reason to be optimistic about the spread of veganism, and what would you urge concerned people to do?

 

Howard Lyman:

There is no doubt that we're skating on very thin ice for the future of humans on planet Earth. It is important to realize your job is not to save the world, your job is to save yourself, and in the process we may be able to save the world. If we do what we can do, no-one can ask for more.

 

I am the most optimistic person in the world about us achieving what we are about. When I see how far we've come in the last 20 years we exceed many other significant movements in the world, such as the abolition of slavery, giving women the right to vote and acknowledging civil liberties. All of those things have taken hundreds of years. Our movement is moving at light speed, and I'm convinced we'll become successful. Do what you can do, and we will win! 

 

Barbara DeGrande:

Thank you! (Actually I too am optimistic, just impatient.)

 

Howard Lyman:

You're welcome!

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Thanks Howard. Before I ask the final pre-registered question, please remember to contact one of the admins - myself, Barbara Degrande, Jason Ward, or Roger Yates, if you would like to ask Howard a question in the open session that follows shortly.

 

Now my question, Howard. Do you think if you had continued raising other animals on a smaller scale that you would have seen the damage you were causing and eventually would have made changes in your life similar to the ones you have made? In other words, do you think that you were destined to become as compassionate as you are, and do you think others are as well, and if not, do you have any advice on some of the best ways to help others make the connection and stop eating and using others?

 

Howard Lyman:

For us to change other peoples' behavior, we need to get them to think about what they are doing. It's not a hamburger, it's ground up flesh and fat. When people actually stop and think about what they're doing, killing an animal so they can eat him, so that they can kill themselves in a long, slow process, is not very smart.

 

It's like buying a new car, and putting sand in the crankcase. It will still run for a while, but it's going to break down big time. Do not point your finger at somebody, because you’ll have one finger pointed at them and three back at yourself. To educate a carnivore, the best thing to do is to tell them how stupid you were at one time. They are more than willing to agree to that. And then you have placed information in their mind that they will never remove. It does no good to make them angry, just remind them that there is a significant problem with our lifestyle. We have to attend a lot more funerals than the other folks.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Thanks. Can I have a follow up please?

 

Howard Lyman:

Sure, Carolyn

 

Carolyn Bailey:

On what you say about anger - there are many animal advocates who seem so angry that they cannot talk to others without belittling and insulting them. Do you have advice for such people?

 

Howard Lyman:

I think what we're involved in is much too important than to be adopting tactics that are proven to fail. I can't tell you how often I would like to reach out and slap some carnivore up alongside the head, but I'm smart enough to know that it's counterproductive. I'm in this effort to win, because when I look in the eyes of my children and grandchildren, I know failure is not an option.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Thank you! We are now ready for the open session. If you have a question, PM an admin. The first open question comes from Peter Keller. Thanks, Peter.

 

Peter Keller:

Thanks! You kinda answered it already in a sense, since you made a change in your life, despite that you used to run a ranch, how would you recommend reaching out to other ranchers, hunters, and other people who live in rural areas who are dyed-in-the-wool animal exploitators (who are more subborn and view vegans as extreme) , of the need to be vegan, and thus, not be in the very industries and practices that exploit animals?

 

Howard Lyman:

Peter, I believe that every individual involved in animal agriculture, deep in their soul, knows what they're doing is wrong. We should not question what they're doing, what we need to do is relate what a relief it was to the soul of people like myself who changed. Most of them would rather do something different, but they don't have the intestinal fortitude to stand up to their community. We need to invite them over to the gentler side, and many of them will come.

 

Peter Keller:

Thanks Howard. Very good.

 

Howard Lyman:

Thank you!

 

Roger Yates:

Thanks Howard. Maynard S. Clark has a question....

 

Maynard S. Clarke:

Thank you, Roger. Good to see you here, Howard. Long time!  How about slaughterhouse bone meal used both in some organic agriculture and in some nonorganic farms?  Please ‘friend’ me on ARZone before you go. :-)

 

Howard Lyman:

Hello to my great friend, Maynard!

 

Maynard S. Clarke:

Glad to see you, Howard.  Thank you very much.

 

Howard Lyman:

Super question. In my opinion there is no place in our food chain for meat and bone meal, period!

 

Maynard S. Clarke:

Follow up?

 

Howard Lyman:

Sure

 

Maynard S. Clarke:

How do we avoid it?  Organic food is often not labeled concerning the source of the fertilizers. Same with conventionally-grown foods we eat produce, etc.

 

Howard Lyman:

You're exactly correct. Labels do not identify this problem. I believe we need to educate our food producers that meat and bone meal have no place in our food.

Maynard S. Clarke:

Thank you very much, Howard.  Perhaps either labeling or regulation.  Thank you.  :-)

 

Howard Lyman:

This will be a very difficult issue to address. There's no doubt in my mind Maynard Clark could be the one to bring it to the forefront.

 

Maynard S. Clarke:

Ha ha

 

Roger Yates:
Next question comes from Bea Elliott. Bea....

 

Bea Elliott:

Hi Mr. Lyman and thanks for your time. Following the industry news - Drovers, Pig Progress, etc., I'm wondering if you're as concerned as I am about the ever expanding global markets? It's frightening to think of China and India doubling their meat consumption in the next few decades as millions of tons are already exported there now. & the idea of the increasing number of factory farms opening in these countries is also alarming.

 

Howard Lyman:

Hi Bea! Yes. Exporting our bad habits around the world is the most inhumane export we could ever send overseas. Hopefully societies that have experienced hunger will realize the fallacy of our exports and I hope and pray this is true.

 

Bea Elliott:

A follow up please...

 

Howard Lyman:

Yes

 

Bea Elliott:

Is there anything we can do to help educate these other countries who are intent to adopt our western eating habits?If we fail - Won't this put AR and environmental causes back centuries? Thank you.

 

Howard Lyman:

Great question! I believe most countries around the world are much brighter when it comes to food production than we are. The shining light is that most people cannot afford our bad habits, and the ones who can, will not outlive the smarter ones. But, it does keep you awake at night.

 

Bea Elliott:

Much appreciated. ;-)

 

Howard Lyman:

My pleasure, Bea.

 

Roger Yates:

Thanks Howard. Next up is Grace Lorraine who is back online. Grace....

 

Grace Lorraine:

Awesome! After Tuttle's World Peace Diet, your books-available at the library-began my vegan education ;-) 3years later, I'm now reading Tudge's "Feeding People Is Easy". i disagree with his animal use, but he has a passage explaining precisely the process of degradation of Britain's "cereal belt" in East Anglia, and its future. Looks like excellent information to supplement vegan advocacy--but i live in California ;-) Forgive my ignorance, please: have you specifically written about the land--or can you suggest credible sources--just concerning U.S. soil??Thanks!

Howard Lyman:
Email me offline, Grace and I'll be happy to send you some reading material. [e-mail]

 

Grace Lorraine:

YAY! Many thanks!

 

Howard Lyman:
My pleasure, thanks for the question.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Thanks. Next up is Honesti. Go ahead please....

 

Honesti:

Thank you, Howard, for what you do for the animals. You are an inspiration! My question is, what are your thoughts on Oprah Winfrey's on-again off-again coverage of veganism. I am wondering if you have seen whether it has helped or hurt the cause. To me, I sense the yo-yo effect would be detrimental to the cause. Thank you.

 

Howard Lyman:

Interesting question, Honesti. I believe that Oprah Winfrey always does what she believes is in her greatest financial interest. I revel in the fact that every time she uses the term "vegan" she helps us whether she really wants to or not.

 

Maynard S. Clarke:

:-)

 

Howard Lyman:

I also marvel in the fact that if she wanted to really change the world, she has great tools to make that happen. So, in my heart, I know that it's about her amassing more wealth.

 

Honesti:

Thank you so much for your honesty. It is what I have always felt! May I please have a follow up question?

Howard Lyman:

Sure, please do

 

Honesti:

Thank you. Do you think it is truly effective to write to our U.S. representatives and if so, if you would please share any tips you may have as to how to be the most effective. Thank you so much!

 

Howard Lyman:

I think writing to your representative has about the same effect as screaming on a dark night, but if you are going to write to them, do it on the side of a brown paper bag, and I guarantee you they will read it. We have the best government money can buy.

Honesti:

Again - it's what I've felt. Thank you! So true...

 

Howard Lyman:

Thank you!

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Thanks Honesti and Howard! The next question comes from Will. When you are ready Will....

 

Will:

hiya howard. what do you think of gary francione and his merry band of lunatics?

 

Howard Lyman:

Well, Gary has been a friend of mine for many years. Who else do you know that could keep you entertained for that long?

 

Will:

good point :-) :-)

 

Roger Yates:

Thanks everyone. Will! Next up is Tyler.

 

Tyler:

Hey Howard, I have read in several books, like Omnivore’s Dilemma for example, that large scale vegan agriculture is not possible. They claim that cow manure and grazing are an integral part of the system of food production. I’m not a farmer, so I have no idea if this is true or not.   Given your background, I thought you might be able to shed some light on this issue. In your opinion, would it be possible for our culture to grow enough food (naturally) to feed our population without relying on animals for manure or grazing, and if so, how could this be done?

 

Howard Lyman:

Tyler, there is no doubt in my mind that we could feed the entire world with vegan agriculture. The issues this book raises are plain bullshit.

 

Tyler:

Can you expand on that a bit? Can green manure work for example? Beyond the backyard garden to feed the millions it would need to, I mean thousands of acres of wheat 100% vegan. I’m only asking because i honestly don't know or if it's ever been tested

 

Howard Lyman:

The authors who write books like The Omnivore's Dilemma want to keep a foot in each camp, so they come up with fictitious issues. The most effective fertilizer is growing green manure crops. It has been practised in agriculture for 1000 years.

 

Kate:
Well said Howard. Thank you!

 

Carolyn Bailey:
This concludes Howard's chat for today and I'd like to thank him very sincerely for being so generous with his time, and giving us some great responses to our questions!  We do appreciate you being here today, thanks!

 

Will:

bye!

 

Sky:

Thanks!!:-)

 

Stacey Larson:

Thank you, Howard.

 

Peter Keller:

Thanks, Howard!

 

Howard Lyman:

Thank you to everyone for being here and taking an interest.

 

Roger Yates:

Thanks Howard.

 

George Miler:

Thanks Howard. Both the questions and answers were very educational.

 

Tyler:

Yes, thanks Howard.  I’m 100% sure you know more about this issue than me.  I appreciate your insight.

 

Herdis Daugbjerg:

Thank you, Howard

 

Jason Ward:

Thanks Howard

 

Maynard S. Clarke:

Thanks SO MUCH, Howard!  :-)  Cheers.  Be well!

 

Jason Ward:

:-)

 

Cyndi Rook:

Thanks Howard and ARZone, of course!

 

Howard Lyman:

You are the hope for the future, it's been my pleasure to spend time with you all today.

 

Barbara DeGrande:

Many thanks, Howard, for giving your time to us!

 

Sadia:

Thank you so ever much  for your time Mr. Lyman.

 

Bea Elliott:

Thank you so much - Very hopeful future you present...

 

Millie Fain:

Thank you!

 

 

ARZone exists to promote rational discussion about our relations with other animals and about issues within the animal advocacy movement. Please continue the debate after “chats” by starting a forum discussion or making a point under a transcript.

 

 

[Stephen]

The great thing about Howard are those turns of phrase you don't expect. The mosquito in a tent--classic! Wit and humor are a must, I think, in going forward.

[Craig Cline]

Thank you, Carolyn.  I appreciate your re-publishing my article, and look forward to comments by AR Zoners.

 

Craig

[Carolyn Bailey]

Hi Craig, I'd be happy to republish it for you and ask for comments from members on your article. 
Howard gave his email address in his chat, so please feel free to send him the link to your article when I re-publish it, and, if he has time, I'm sure he'd be happy to advise you on it.

 

[Craig Cline]

I was not able to participate in the forum with Howard, but I respect him immensely.  A few years back, I invited him to Salem, Oregon to speak at a Border's Books public event, and he graciously accepted.  I hope to again talk with him in person about a few particular issues, including the article I wrote and submitted to the Animal Rights Zone entitled "Rights, Wrongs, and The Golden Rule."  I think that animal rights (I prefer the term animal wrongs, which better gets the attention of people in my opinion) advocates like us REALLY miss the boat in that we don't ask -- and expect -- people who are "religious" to live up to their practicing The Golden Rule when it comes to all of the animals who don't happen to be human animals.  I thought that I might get more feedback from Animal Zone participants on my article when I previously submitted it.  I would LIKE  to get your opinions on it, so may I please request that it be "re-presented" from the AR archives.  Thanks!

 

Craig Cline, longtime animal issues activist

Salem, Oregon

[e-mail]