Transcript of Barbara DeGrande's ARZone Guest Chat of 4/5 December 2010

[Carolyn Bailey]

Transcript of Barbara DeGrande’s ARZone Guest Chat

4 December 2010 at:

2pm Pacific Time

5pm Eastern Time

10pm UK Time and:

5 December 2010 at:

8am Australian Eastern Standard Time

Carolyn Bailey:

ARZone would like to warmly welcome Barbara DeGrande as today’s chat guest.

Barbara is a writer, blogger, vegan abolitionist, analyst, therapist and an advocate for humans and other animals.

Barbara has a Bachelor of Arts in Interdisciplinary Studies from U.C. Santa Barbara and a Master's degree in Clinical Psychology from Antioch University.

Barbara has worked in Juvenile Justice, managed and developed forensic mental health programs and directed the Ventura County MIOCR (Mentally Ill Offender Crime Reduction) grant.

Barbara is currently the Dallas Vegan Culture Examiner for Examiner.com as well as a Feature Writer for Suite101 in the Documentary Film section.

Barbara maintains a blog, Veganacious, and corresponding podcast. She has also contributed her writing to other blogs, most recently an anti-torture treatise featured on a political blog.

Barbara has generously agreed to engage ARZone members today on a range of topics.

Please welcome Barbara to ARZone.

Jason Ward

Hi Barbara nice to have you here today


Lisa Blundell
Welcome Barbara! Thank you for being here.


Mangus O’Shales
hi barbara :-)


Barbara DeGrande
Thank you!


Brooke Cameron
Welcome, Barb!


Tim Gier
Hi Barbara!!


Ben Hornby
Hi Barbara


Christina Louise
Hi Barbara


Tina Menier
Hello Barbara!


Barbara DeGrande
:-D


Luna Hughes
Hello Barbara :-)


Carolyn Bailey:
Before we begin, I’d like to request that people refrain from interrupting Barbara during the chat session. If anyone would like to ask Barbara a follow-up, please feel free to let myself, Tim or Jason know, so as to

keep the chat running smoothly. Alternatively feel free to utilise the open session at the completion of Barbara’s formal questions to do so. I’d now like to ask Barbara the first question on behalf of Tammy McLeod.

Hi Barbara, thanks for your time today. When and how did you get involved in animal rights?

Barbara DeGrande
I cared about animals for many years but only discovered animal rights a few years ago. I learned mostly from podcasts, then read everything at the local libraries on the subject and learned from people like

Gary Francione on Twitter, blogs, etc. My own blog was actually started in response to my adult son and his wife asking me to start a vegan recipe blog; they had blogs and saw a need. It has, like me, evolved over time.

Jason Ward
Thanks Barbara. Next question is from Carolyn Bailey - when you are ready Carolyn giv'er :-D


Carolyn Bailey
Thanks, Jay! In last week’s open forum in ARZone you mentioned you were going to try and get a group started to help you with vegan outreach. How is this going, and do you have any advice for others thinking of

doing the same?

Barbara DeGrande:
I just started the group, Animal Rights and Rescue of North Texas, our first meeting will be after the first of the year. We already have one abolitionist vegan, a couple of other vegans, a vegetarian, and several animal rescuers. I learned from other abolitionists not to keep the group too narrow to start. We will be doing some rescue training hopefully and outreach. Time will tell; I can share more when I learn if it is successful or not.


Jason Ward
Next up we have a question from Tim Gier- whenever you are ready Tim!


Tim Gier
Hi Barbara, thank you for taking our questions. You wrote about your experiences visiting a veterinarian who seemed caught in a time warp – still stuck in a very speciesist mindset with “all kinds of moral

inconsistencies publicly displayed all over their office” (a mounted swordfish, horse racing photos, etc.). Yet, your cat friend Skitter received excellent care there. When you consider this, do you see any parallels between it and other kinds of animal care, such as zoos and aquariums? Are those places providing a valuable service despite their unenlightened views?

Barbara DeGrande

Only in the lack of awareness of those very inconsistencies. Here in Texas we have hunting ranches - animals penned in by huge chain link fences where people come in and shoot them for “sport.”

Many of those animals come from zoos, so I think they have to be viewed as major exploiters of animals. We need to put our energies into cleaning up the natural world, rather than creating limited false environments

for animals as is done in aquarium I would see sanctuaries as providing care for animals in a less exploitive way, where the animals live at home and are not on display to amuse humans.

Tim Gier
Thanks Barbara! The next question is from Roger Yates, but Dr. Yates is off galavanting so Jason Ward will ask it for him. Jason?


Jason Ward
Thanks Tim.. Hi Barbara. You took part in “blog action day 2010” which was about water and water poverty. Your particular blog entry, of course, emphasised the importance of veganism.... Did you get any feedback from others in the initiative who had not perhaps seen the important connection between water waste and the consumption of animal products?


Barbara DeGrande
I received very little feedback on that article, but I was happy to write it. My own sister is very concerned with water conservation, he she consumes animal products. She occasionally reads the blog; I imagine she

read it. It is an important issue and one that is often overlooked by activists. "yet she consumes"

Tim Gier
Thanks again Barbara, our own Carolyn Bailey has the next question, Carolyn??

Carolyn Bailey
Thanks for that, Tim. Hi Barbara, in your podcast and blog “Mincing the Myths”, you note that “When people become aware of the status of animals in the world, of their complete subjugation by human beings, the first

instinct is often to find a cause and work on it.” Whilst this is understandable, and many people feel they must help animals who they deem to be suffering “now”, do you have any advice for explaining to others that single issue campaigns which appear to … have immediate “successes” are often detrimental to other animals, even leading to the misconception that some other animals are worthy of saving and others are not?

Barbara DeGrande
When I first started the Veganacious page on Facebook, someone asked me what I was doing about the seal slaughter. I said I was planning to begin podcasting, but vegan education is the only way I know to

help liberate animals. Protests about the baby seal slaughter have been ongoing for decades. I am old enough to have witnessed the failed policies of such targeted approaches. More animals are being tormented now than ever before. That is in itself damning information.

Carolyn Bailey:
Thanks for that, Barbara. Tim Gier would like to ask another question now, go ahead, Tim


Tim Gier
On August 24th you wrote (about anti-animal rights author Rev. Michael P. Orsi): “It would seem that Orsi simply does not want anything to change, because his foundation is inextricably intertwined with a belief

that humans are superior and animals are put on earth for man’s use, however cruelly mankind wants to use them.” How can vegans reach people like this “where they are” when their entire self-identity seems to be wrapped up in the domination and exploitation of others?

Barbara DeGrande
I am not sure we can reach them but I would start with his own belief system. Didn't God get angry at the People for complaining about the manna he provided? They wanted meat! This is an ancient conflict. And there was no flesh eating in the Garden. How would a caring and compassionate God allow sentient innocents to be tormented so? I would emphasize what we have learned about the complex lives of animals, their sentience, empathy, personalities, social structures, etc. But I would not hold my breath. Sometimes the best we

can do is try to live a non-violent vegan lifestyle and let that speak for itself. BTW, Orsi felt veganism threatened his faith - his own admission.

Tim Gier

May I ask a quick follow-up?

Barbara DeGrande

Sure!

Tim Gier

Thank you. Are you saying then that there will be some people who we just can't reach, and that we should focus on those we can?

Barbara DeGrande

No, but I rarely go after an individual on my blog. I think because of his belief system, he would be challenging. I reach out - he would probably not reach back is all I meant.

Tim Gier

Thank you Barbara, I like how you say to reach out, even if they won't reach back. Brooke Cameron has the next question, whenever you are ready Brooke.

Brooke Cameron:

Thank you This week, the Sea Shepherd crew have left Hobart for the Southern Ocean in their bid to stop the Japanese Govt. sponsored whalers killing as many whales as possible. Their quota this year, again, includes 50 humpbacks, along with 935 minke whales and 50 endangered fin whales. Without SS’s presence in
the Southern Ocean, there’s little argument this quota would be met each year. Do you support the direct again of SS, if so why, if not what would your alternative be?

Barbara DeGrande:

I do not personally support them financially and do not actively follow them. Years ago I was a Greenpeace supporter; I followed Paul Watson when he was on ARZ. I do think protecting the oceans and life therein is
very important work. Sometimes campaigns for whales or dolphins tend to get the media attention while other sea life is overlooked, yet is equally important. Obviously, there is no purpose in saving whales if we do not save their environment and the sea life they need to survive. Some of these conservationists are not vegan, which I see as problematic. I would like to see many of these organizations combine forces to promote veganism.

Brooke Cameron:

Thanks for that, Barbara. May I also ask a follow-up?

Barbara DeGrande:

Sure!

Brooke Cameron:

Thanks! Sea Shepherd refer to themselves as an anti-poaching organisation and reject the idea that they should be responsible for vegan education. Paul Watson is very open about that. Do you think it’s fair to expect more from SS in the form of vegan education?

Barbara DeGrande:

No I don't; I just think it would help the animals and the ocean more if they would look at the big picture. I understand that is not their purpose, but it is mine!

Carolyn Bailey:

Thanks, Barbara, and Brooke.

Will would like to ask a question next but is unable to be here, so Jay will ask it for him. Thanks, Jay!

Jason Ward:

Thanks Carolyn. In episode 10 of your podcast, you say farewell to welfare. You describe your journey from vegetarianism to abolitionist veganism. Can you talk about the process by which you became vegetarian in the first place: where you, for example, subject to this “vegetarian first” tradition in the movement? IOWs, did you fall into the common trap of not thinking of veganism as the ~first thing~ we do for nonhuman animals in animal advocacy?


Barbara DeGrande

I became a vegetarian decades ago and veganism was not a word I had even heard then. It was difficult to be vegetarian then and I was living in an ideal place - on the banks of the Russian River in Sonoma County, California - not a bad place to be at all. Later, I did hear the word and actually was eating a plant-based diet but did not fully realize what vegan meant until a few years ago. I always hated the idea of eating animals. I learned more about what was going on from listening to podcasts. Now I am a strong believer in a clear VEGAN message. I would have embraced veganism much sooner had I learned about what was going on in the world of animals then.

Tim Gier

Thanks Barbara, Jason has the next question. Go ahead Jason!

Jason Ward

Thanks again Tim

On September 10th you wrote this on your blog: “We must never demand that those who are speciesist in orientation join us where we are, but we must educate them and invite them in a way they can accept.”... Would

you please give an example or two of what you mean?

Barbara DeGrande:

Let me use an example from my professional life as an analogy. If a client came to see me in therapy with an addiction that was destroying his or her life, it would do no good to demand they stop. The issues are too complex emotionally and physiologically. They would need to change many patterns in their life, many associations, and look at what function the addiction plays in their life and thinking. I would need for them to discover this and help them see by asking the right questions and supporting them. In much the same way, I cannot force anyone to become vegan. I can only provide education, information and support
should they choose to make a change in their life. A real life example: recently a former colleague asked me to stop posting vegan articles on his page. I agreed. About two weeks later, he wrote me that he was giving up eating mammals - no vegan but working on it. I put the information out, pulled back when asked, and then he felt comfortable and moved forward. I think the operative word in that quoted sentence was "demand." :-)

Carolyn Bailey:

Thanks again, Barbara! Roger has a question next, which he'll ask himself now that he's finally arrived. Thanks, Roger.

Roger Yates:

As a sociologist, I was particularly taken by your Veganacious post, “Small Non-Vegan Visitors,” in which you describe catering for two boys, one aged 5 and the other somewhat older. Your account – and especially in relation to the reactions of the older child – made me think of the social power of socialisation processes. The older guy seemed to have gained some prior prejudice toward veganism which you had to work at to
overcome. You speak of him wrinkling his nose ~before~ tasting things. Were you simply dealing with a fussy eater, or someone already “educated” by a speciesist society?

Barbara DeGrande:

A bit of both. Not fussy by extremely limited in his tastes. And definitely a product of early socialization. He is ten and was five when I first came to Texas - he had been taught to stomp on ant hills. I explained the interdependency of ants and termites and how imporant it was to leave the insects be. Only a few weeks ago, his little brother told me big brother was taking insects out of the house rather than killing them. And he asked me to make him a vegan pizza just last week. He is still not thrilled with all vegan fare but loves vegan ice
cream (especially fresh strawberry), banana bread, and now pizza. Little brother has eaten about 50% vegan at least most of his life; he is open to eating anything.

Roger Yates:

Thanks Barbara

Tim Gier:

Barbara, may I ask a follow-up?

Barbara DeGrande

Yes by all means!

Tim Gier

Thanks! You've not mentioned whether there are any young girls in your family... but, given your background, do you think that boys are more ready to hurt others, as a show of their "manhood"?

Barbara DeGrande

They definitely have different pressures. Despite me being a terrible tomboy, I did not have the same pressures as young boys do. There is the myth about what being "tough" means. I love it that when I pick my grandson, 5, up from preschool, at least five or six little roughians come up and hug him before he leaves. That never happened when I was a kid! Hopefully, some of these pressures will change over time. Unfortunately, when I worked "inside" I found that many girls and young women are involved in beatings, stabbings, murders, almost on the same level as the young men. Some kinds of equality are nothing to celebrate, sadly.

Tim Gier

wow. Thank you for that. Carolyn has the next question, Carolyn?

Carolyn Bailey

Thanks, Tim. Hi, again, Barbara, you strongly reject all violence, and rightly so in my opinion. I’m curious if you have an opinion on the recent case of the sending of razor blades allegedly infected with the HIV virus to a prominent vivisector in the US, by animal rights activists. Do you class this as a violent act? Why or why not?

Barbara DeGrande

It is definitely calculated to intimidate. There is often, though, a boomerang effect with these kinds of tactics. One example I mentioned in a podcast was about vegan activists throwing a cayenne-laced pie in Lierre
Keiths face as she spoke at a book store, promoting The Vegetarian Myth. Her sales shot up, she was interviewed repeatedly, and the view of vegans plummeted. I do understand the frustration of people taking part in these tactics; they obviously feel very passionately. But I do not personally support them.

Carolyn Bailey

Thanks, again, Barbara, for your insight. Tim Gier would like to ask another question now, go ahead, Tim.

Tim Gier

In your recent podcast you mentioned that it's unrealistic to think that all people might go vegan overnight. A prominent advocacy group agrees with you and so they advocate that people start on their path to veganism by refraining from eating chicken and fish, because the majority of others killed for food are fishes and chickens. Does that kind of gradual approach make sense to you?

Barbara DeGrande

No. I try not to partner with any kind of exploitation. It is not my job as a vegan to suggest that one kind of exploitation is preferable to another. It sends the wrong message. Even less animals are killed by veganism; let's support that. If people need help transitioning, we can be there for them. Once you accept and embrace veganism, eating is the easy part!

Carolyn Bailey

Thanks, Barbara. Ben Hornby would like to ask a question next, thanks, Ben.

Ben Hornby

Thank you. Many advocates believe that children should be the focus of as much of our advocacy as possible. Although, obviously, adults are capable of education at any age, often older people can be overlooked. Do you focus your advocacy anywhere in particular, and do you have an opinion of the focus being, often, on children?

Barbara DeGrande

I do not focus my advocacy right now on any particular age group; I am doing podcasting, blogging, creating vegan recipes and working on a directory for vegans. These are support services available for anyone. I do
have some ideas about the new group and future outreach possibilities. I would like to see us leaflet at local events and college campuses, maybe develop a humane education curriculum. As someone who came to veganism in later years, I would not overlook anyone at any age, but do think the sooner the better, definitely.

Tim Gier

Barbara, thanks again. Roger has another question for you. Professor Yates, when you are ready

Roger Yates

ok Hi Barbara. Like me you seem to dislike the term “veg*n” and have written about the response you had from animal advocates when you criticised the “word.” Can you explain why you dislike it so much and the
nature of the response to your critique?

Barbara DeGrande

I dislike it because it equivocates - it is not clear. In an attempt to cast a wider net, the vegan message gets lost. The recent spate of people calling themselves ex-vegans, including a vegan cookbook author, demonstrate the problem inherent in people thinking veganism is about diet, and lumping people with different diets into a single category. It confuses the public. Vegan is a simple world; has it been explained to me earlier, I could
have done so much more and saved more animal lives. Let's stop Veganaphobia!!!!

Roger Yates

Thanks Barb!

Carolyn Bailey

Thanks again, Barb. Jason Ward has a question for you next, all yours, Jay!

Jason Ward

Thanks Carolyn

Barbara, you’ve been spending considerable time working on an international vegan directory. This is an amazing idea, congratulations! Could you please tell us a little more about this, and perhaps which businesses

would be likely to be listed? How do we find this directory?

Barbara DeGrande

Thanks Jason. It is not yet fully operational but is at http://vegansdirectory.com and we have a page on Facebook and Twitter. When it is done it will have hundreds of vegan businesses, services, and organizations
from around the world. One of the joys of working on this is that I am seeing what is developing and where as I discover these services and businesses. Right now there are over 400 listings; I am hoping to have it operational in a few months. It is helpful to find out which laundry soap is vegan, which cosmetics are okay, etc. Most are all vegan; if not, there is a **Vegan Warning** about what is not vegan. A few products are listed that might be of interest to vegans, but most are vegan. It is also fun to write to so many companies and alert them
that people are searching for vegan products. It all helps!

Carolyn Bailey

Thanks again, Barbara! For the last question in the formal chat for today, Tim Gier will ask a question from Lorraine Haines. Thanks, Tim.

Tim Gier
Barbara, I very much admire the manner in which you interact with all activists. Always focusing on the issue being discussed, and avoiding personal remarks/attacks etc. There is a lot of personal animosity involved in many discussions (Facebook, Twitter etc.) at this moment in time, and I fear that this diverts the emphasis away from discovering the best way forward, regarding the rights of other animals. Do you think this situation

will continue, or can you see more positive interactions becoming the norm in the future? Thank you for your time.

Barbara DeGrande
I do think it will get better. I think ARZone is one of the ways it will happen. I have heard from a variety of people with different perspectives on this site, and nearly always in a civil fashion. I am learning about different ways of

thinking, differing ways of doing outreach, different resources - all helpful. I also think it is important to learn how other people think and feel, in order to develop more effective ways of educating them, while educating myself too. Also, being attacked or called names comes with the territory, so we have to develop a thick skin and be prepared to move forward anyway. It is about the animals, not us.

Carolyn Bailey
Thanks, Barbara! Your responses to these formal questions have been wonderfully helpful. I'd like now to open the chat up to any other members who may have any other questions for Barbara. Tim Gier would like to

ask another question first, go ahead, Tim

Tim Gier
This is a follow-up, in a way, to the last question. Do you think that certain personality types are drawn to this movement and is that the cause of some of the discord? My sense is that many of us are searching for

something.

Barbara DeGrande
Years ago I worked on issues of overpopulation. There was the same discord People were so passionate, and what we were seeing was so obvious, yet it seemed the rest of the world was totally asleep (and still

are). Now, everything we feared has started happening. So, part of it is the passion it takes to work on something with such seemingly insurmountable odds, and it is easy to see others within the movement as a threat. It is like having one of those parachutes that preschoolers sit around and pull. Everyone pulls
at once and the chute doesn't move. That gets frustrating. Plus, unlike overpopulation, we have a very real sense that those animal death calculators are going off all the time. While there may be a wide variety of personality
types, I see it more as evidence of frustration, misunderstanding, and passion.

Carolyn Bailey

Thanks, Barbara. Roger wanted to ask another question as well, thanks Rog.

Tim Gier

Thanks Barbara

Roger Yates

So, what's the latest DeGrande analysis of Farmville, Barbara!

Barbara DeGrande

Ha! I love and hate that darned game. My sister got me started and it is how the grand kids keep in touch. But what a time drain! Good therapy though - THAT I can do successfully!

Carolyn Bailey

Thanks, Barb! Mangus O'Shales has a question next, go ahead, Mangus, thanks.

Mangus O’Shales

Last week a few of you were talking about how its easier for white rich people to be vegans and not so easy for people who live in africa or somewhere like that. what do we do about that? thank you for talking to us

tonight! :-)

Barbara DeGrande

Good question, Mangus. I have two correspondents in Uganda and I know things are very difficult there. There are parts of the globe that are still pretty dark when I search for vegan businesses, but also some countries

have relied on plant food as their main food source, too. I think people with a wide array of choices should be the ones to begin, though. And hopefully we can continue to reach across the globe. But honestly, it troubles many of us and I am glad you are thinking about it. I wish I had a better answer.

Mangus O’Shales
thank you, its a good answer!


Carolyn Bailey
Thanks again, Barbara. Timmy would like to ask another question. Thanks, Tim

Tim Gier Barbara, how do you deal with the frustration? It does seem as though we're facing a mountain road, driving an old underpowered Fiat that won't make it to the top.

Barbara DeGrande
I owned that Fiat!


Tim Gier
:-)


Barbara DeGrande
I just did a podcast about that subject, Tim, because I have dropped the ball on self-care this year. Most of my life I ran, swam, lifted weights.


Roger Yates
all at the same time?


Barbara DeGrande
Very funny, Roger!That really helps. Yoga, deep breathing, stretching, photography, music whatever floats your boat. I get into trouble when I don't laugh, get outdoors. My little grandson is soooo funny, he keeps me smiling. The hardest part for me is that calculator in the back of my head, feeling the pressure of those animals. The sense of helplessness is most unpleasant. I think it is super, super important for people with this awareness to take excellent care of themselves. It won't help the animals if we all get sick or frustrated. But it isn't easy being that Fiat, is it?


Carolyn Bailey
Thank you again, Barbara. Nath Miles has another question for you. Go ahead, Nath

.

Nath Miles
Hi Barbara, My question is as follows: What do you think about those who feel it is completely ok to factory farm, torture and slaughter animals so as to feed them to sustain so called companion animals (dogs and

cats) rather than having them put to sleep?

Barbara DeGrande
That's a gut-wrenching question. I think we have to do the least harm, and every person has to decide for themselves where that line is. Most animals can survive and thrive on a vegan diet; a few cannot. I try not to

get into judgments and keep my focus on what I can control and what I think is right. But there are no easy answers. For example, one sanctuary I know has quit taking in lions and other big cats because of this dilemma. I think these animals may well go extinct due to the unsustainable nature of feeding them in
the future. These are horrendous questions we have put ourselves in a position to deal with.

Carolyn Bailey
Thanks, Barb Nath would like to ask a follow-up if you don't mind.


Barbara DeGrande
Sure.


Carolyn Bailey
When you're ready, Nath. Thanks :-)


Nath Miles
Hi Barbara, It would seem that the "least harm" would be to humanely put the excess companion animals to sleep as to keep them alive and sustain them hundreds of animals would have to die. So why is it that

our society has become so speciesist? As in its ok to kill other animals to keep the cute fluffy ones alive?

Barbara DeGrande
The problem is that there are millions of these domesticate being exterminated now and it doesn't seem to stop the flow of these beings in the world. Also, many of the animals eat the garbage left over from the human

demand, which would not be fed to others anyway. When it comes to questions such as who deserves to live and who should be killed, the answer is that to each and every life, it is sacred to them. When population pressures get worse, more and more of these questions will be asked. Some activists rescue as many companion animals as possible others have none, in part for these reasons.

Roger Yates
Hi Nath. Your Q is important. Can I ask you to pose it in an ARZone forum post so members can discuss it?


Nath Miles
Sure no worries :-)


Roger Yates
Thanks Barbara - I have a question via our hard-working transcriber.... Do you think anyone (human or nonhuman) has the right to breed? [Since you mentioned overpopulation]

.

Barbara DeGrande
Sure. That doesn't mean they should. I would hope that humans would be prudent. I would hope that we would stop breeding domesticates. But I have been hoping for a long time. Still, people applaud politicians for having a large family. It seems pretty upside down. It is really a very hot issue for most folks, even today.


Kate Go Vegan
Thanks


Carolyn Bailey
Thank you Kate


Carolyn Bailey
Tim would like a follow-up if he may, please, Barbara


Barbara DeGrande
Of course.


Tim Gier
Do you think that we have the right to spay and neuter nonhuman individuals, or is it a violation of their which we just excuse for other reasons? ...violation of their rights.


Barbara DeGrande
It seems to be a question of least harm, so I do support spay-neuter programs. There are already so many animals getting put down without a home. It is part and parcel of what creating domesticates involves.

I know someone who runs a farm animal sanctuary and that is always a top priority or she would run out of space in a hurry.

Carolyn Bailey
Thanks, Barbara. Tim would like to ask another one. Go ahead, Tim.


Tim Gier
Barbara, Dr. Oscar Horta writes about how much suffering there is in the natural world, given the huge numbers of nonhumans born who die horrible deaths before reaching maturity and reproducing I think of sea turtle

hatchlings, as they try to make it to the sea, dying as the food for predators. Do you think we have any obligation to intervene in those kinds of situations?

Barbara DeGrande

I think we have an obligation when we have mucked up the works, otherwise we should leave animals be. One example would be how we are decimating predators, then going in and killing the herd animals due to

overpopulation. We are not very good at interventions overall, or we would be putting a check on our own overpopulation. Notice how everyone talks about reaching 9 billion people? Who is talking about stopping the growth?

Carolyn Bailey
Thanks again, Barbara. Are there any further questions for Barbara today from anyone?


Tim Gier
Thanks Barbara! Your last pont is a good one!


Barbara DeGrande
Thanks Tim!


Carolyn Bailey
In that case, I'd like to sincerely thank you, Barbara, for your time, insight and generosity today. ARZone sincerely appreciate it!


Barbara DeGrande
Thank you, Carolyn.


Carolyn Bailey
It's been an absolute pleasure to have you join us.


Erin
Thank you


Kate Go Vegan
Thanks Barbara. VHEMT.org (Voluntary Human Extinction Movement) provide a lot of good information about overpopulation, as I guess you know.


Jason Ward

thanks Barbara for being here today - you rocked!!!

Roger Yates

Thanks Barbara!

Ben Hornby

Thank you, Barbara. This has been a great chat!

Mangus O’Shales

this was a good chat. thank you barbara.

Christina Louise

Thanks very much, Barbara!

Brooke Cameron

Thanks for today, Barbara. Great chat!

Jordan Wyatt

thank you Barbara! You're my hero!

Tim Gier

Barbara, thank you very much for your time and your thoughtful replies to our questions!

Barbara DeGrande

Thanks everyone!

Sadia V madie

Thank you much indeed, obsereved and absorbed and grateful , great discussion :-)

Trent Engelhart:
good chat, thanks.

Pearl Lotus

Many thanks.

Carolyn Bailey

Thanks also to all ARZone members for your support again today

Kate Go Vegan.

ARZone exists to promote rational discussion about our relations with other animals and about issues within the animal advocacy movement. Please continue the debate after a chat by starting a forum
discussion or by making a point under a transcript.

Animal Rights Zone (ARZone) is a voluntary, grassroots, abolitionist animal rights social network created in December 2009 with the aim of encouraging rational dialogue in the animal protection movement.