How do *you* talk with ordinary people about veganism?

[Billy L]

As the title suggests, I'm wondering what others say to people (omnivorous, mostly unaware of animal rights concepts) they meet one-on-one.

I find myself bringing my veganism up when the inevitable topic of food arises, not wanting to downplay it as vegetarianism, or avoiding dairy, etc. but rather to assert the ethical reasons for my choice.

It seems much easier to compose an argument on a forum or facebook, because you can reference articles or websites that give in-depth information to back up your claims. But in a unplanned live context, with no aids like pamphlets or videos, only your memory and conversation skills, where do *you* start?

How do you introduce the idea of animal rights and the reason that you are vegan to folks like the ones I mentioned? Do you have a "canned" speech or mental list of talking points that you have found to be effective?

What are some counterarguments or objections that stumped you and how did you either overcome them or what did you learn for the next time?

[Billy L]

I've had some very interesting conversations with coworkers about veganism. My current way of characterizing veganism as easy is to say upfront that I'm 99% vegan, and immediately point out contradictions like the leather work shoes I need to wear for safety reasons, or the fact that tires and pavement have animal derived ingredients and I still use them. That leads into all the things I avoid, (again keeping it introductory) like eggs, dairy, and meat - the major cause of harm to animals. Depending on the level of interest, the next general step is to search for a possible domestic animal fondness (one coworker raised guide dogs for the blind in Future Farmers of America for instance - others have rescued dogs), and get the concept of relating the connection between mother and child, and the awareness/consciousness animals express regarding their treatment, on the table.

It seems very foreign to some people that obviously have never given it much thought, so I'm seeking everyone's advice and experience on ways to improve these type of exchanges.

It seems like too much sometimes when I get an almost dismissive reaction like "I could never give up cheese!" - I don't want to go into preach/lecture mode, so I've let it go at points like that, but have felt like there was something convincing I could end with on a light/positive note.

I guess I'm struggling most with not crossing too far over people's boundaries, and positively stating the reasons for my choice.

[Dino Sarma]

"Oh, I could never give up cheese!" "Yeah, I used to think the same thing. :grin: It took about three weeks—which is about the amount of time it took for me to give up smoking—and then I was more or less sorted. Funny how that works." It usually elicits a laugh, if nothing else. I'm not necessarily looking to get the person to commit to me right now, but I have planted a seed. Now, whenever they think of their cheese addiction, they'll see it as such. It's subtle, but it keeps me sane, if nothing else. 

You need to have a particular manner when you do it. It's with a wink and a nudge. Laughter is usually a good tool to disarm awkward moments of stupidity (like, the one where even though you've just gotten done explaining about the horrors of the animal industries, the person *still* thinks that their tastebuds have shit all to do with anything). 

[Billy L]

Thanks Dino, I admire people that have your ability to lighten up such serious subject matter. I'll definitely keep this in mind. The hard thing to give up for me was going out to breakfast. There's a wonderful place that I really miss eating at (huge wheat/blueberry pancakes, chunky seasoned potatoes - the small red kind, scrambled eggs, and watery weak folgers style coffee) - I use that withdrawal example, but it makes being vegan seem like asceticism...
By the way, your book arrived at my weekend home (I stay in an apartment for work during the week) - I left it there so that it would get picked up by my girlfriend and her mom, I told them about it already, they're both 99% vegan like me only they have much more time to cook, so I'm hoping to have a version of something from the book for a meal in the coming weekends!

[Dino Sarma]

Bill, what clever activism (and sneaky ways to get tasty food)! Showing people that it can be done is as effective as telling them, right? Y'know what got me to lighten up a bit? The knowledge that I was there too. I used to eat animal products, and think that I was a vegetarian for animal rights reasons too. I sincerely believed that I was doing lots for the animals even though I was reading vegan literature that mentioned the horrible conditions of farmed animals. This is the same quandary that the folks who buy cage free, free range, pastured meat/eggs/milk are going through: they see, but they don't see, and they think that ultimately, it's a choice thing. 

But the bottom line is, that I was there too. If I recall my thinking back then, there was nobody to really challenge me in a way that got through my defences. And frankly, quitting smoking wasn't giving anything up that I needed. Anyone who is a nonsmoker knows that. Smoking is a filthy habit that harms your body, and you only think is pleasurable. You don't realise that the pleasure feelings are your addiction to the horrible substance. 

That's why I don't draw parallels between food and other food: I draw the parallel between eating animals and their byproducts and being addicted to a drug, because the rhetoric is all the same. I've seen heroin addicts injecting heroin in between their toes, in their neck, in all kinds of horrible places. Anyone asks them, and they say, "But I could never give it up! It's too hard. I need it to live and be happy." Now repeat that refrain (in your head) that a carnist says repeatedly: "I could never give up this product of cruelty. It tastes too good. To have a decent quality of life, I need this." It's word-for-word identical with a smoker, with an alcoholic, with a drug addict. 

And so, I can sort of make light of it in very specific situations, when people are relaxed, and willing to go with me. Otherwise I merely look decidedly uncomfortable, and that tends to speak volumes, when I say, "Oh. I'm sorry to hear that", and rapidly change the subject, as if they really do have this horrible addiction that is Not To Be Spoken Of. Both tactics get the job done. The latter is a little different, because it changes the discourse rather quickly, and again, the seed is planted. 

[Jeannie Habbal]

I no longer really verbally "talk" with ordinary people about Veganism.  I actually "visually" talk to them about veganism.  I have learned to teach by example and giving samples.  lol

Years ago, when I was a lot younger, I was more of an activist in my way of talking about it, in that I was pushing my lifestyle on others and turning them off in the process.  In most of my places of employment I was the only one of "my kind"  lol  It almost became as bad as talking about religion or politics. People get offended and sometimes nasty about not wanting to be vegan, and actually think vegans are a cult or at the very least "weirdo's".

One gal's argument was that she felt the bible says to eat meat and of course if the bible says to eat meat, then by God we will eat meat and to not eat meat makes us heathens. Another one asserted that the only purpose for animals on this earth is for "man's enjoyment, and nurishment"  She said that if we were not supposed to eat meat then meat would not be responsible for most of our vitamins, iron and minerals, which keeps us healthy and she said that "most vegetarians are unhealthy". lol

 I pretty much became the "joke" of the office and anytime there were lunches or pot lucks many jokes would be thrown about the "vegetarian/vegan" in the room.  I ended up hating my job.

At my last job, (and years later from that terrible experience), I decided that I would "preach by example". I decided not to take the activist approach and to just try to blend in as much as possible so that I could enjoy working there. I always brought food that looked great and tasted awesome. I always brought extra to share and after time even the most picky gal there would try some of what I brought and actually loved many of the things I would bring. In time, and as I saw an opening,  I would print articles from the internet...I would leave the articles on my desk after talking about them...knowing that many of the gals in my office are nosy (  ;-)  )  In time conversations were sparked and when I was asked questions, I always backed up what I said with articles. I gave web sites and just put information out there bit by bit.  It took about 2 years, but I am happy to say that 2 of my "not going to give up meat" co-workers became vegetarian.  The bad news is that there are over 20 employees that worked there that didn't change the bible quoter and the other gal didn't.  Still, I felt that was a victory for me and I left them with enough interest in pursuing the education of the consequences of eating meat.  Who knows, at some point some of the others might find their way to the right path....at the very least, I have laid the ground work..the rest is up to them. 

Btw...as for the love of cheese, milk, and eggs...in today's modern world you can have all that and be happy.  There are awesome products out there that mimic those items and can ease the transition for those die-hard dairy addicts.  I buy the most awesome pizza, it is Tofurky Italian sausage & fire-roasted veggie pizza!  Delicious....Melting "cheese"!!  I buy a yogurt that is out of this world...Soy Yogurt by Whole Soy & Co! deliciousness in a cup! Tofu scrambles in corn tortillas with salsa!  Yum!

I only use those items as occasional treats...however, they are a great way to make a fair trade off for those that have that as an obstacle.

So, the the answer to your question, for me, is that *I* don't talk to ordinary people about veganism (unless they down right ask me), I lead by example and wait for the questions to come. I guess you can call it a passive-aggressive approach to teaching an often times difficult subject, but it is works for me.

 

 

[veganpilotmarty]

I just start *somewhere*.  Every situation is different but the ultimate message is the same.  Sometimes you just want to leave hints for people to think about and other times its more appropriate to take a deep breath and prepare for the full onslaught.  I think it's like first aid:  bad first aid administered is most times better than excellent first aid not given.  Just saying something to open the door to the discussion and get people thinking a tad differently about what they're putting in their mouths as a who and not a thing, to me, is almost more important than what you say.

It's also like sales.  You ask for the sale, "Why don't you go vegan?" and when you get the rebuttal, "I can't give up cheese!" you have to have thought about the answers ... and there are many.  It depends on your individual philosophy.  Answers range from, "Do what you can do then and give up everything except the cheese," to talking about how milk and dairy result in perhaps more cruelty for longer times than eating beef.  Whatever you say gets the thought out there that there is something other than the status quo to consider.

The same goes with all other objections.  You do have to do some prep work and think about various answers that you're comfortable with.

It also depends on who you're talking to.  A conversation struck up with a stranger in a restaurant or next to you in an airplane leaves more room to get someone, ahhh ... "upset" about the issue than a co-worker you'll have to see every day.  

I have cards made with my website, Marty's Flying Vegan Review, and encourage people to check out the different kinds of food available to vegans.  "What do you eat?" barely nudges out "Where do you get your protein?" and my website offers a worldwide view of eating out options.

You do have to know a few things about protein, leather, the spectrum of vegans and veganism, (ie some will wear old clothes made from animals but not buy new and others toss their entire wardrobe), the why and the what and the where and then you'll have to explain why some people call themselves vegan and eat fish and chicken, (good Lord!), and milk and dairy and and and and.  The good news is you a) get better at it the more you do it and b) you can always say, "I know the answer to that but don't have it on the tip of my tongue" and follow up by email, etc.  

Colleen Patrick-Goudreau and Gary Francione have tons of information on their podcasts and websites about questions and answers like these.

Best of luck and kudos for being in the real world discussions.

[veganpilotmarty]

The 80/20 rule applies in so many situations in life.  80% of something usually comes from 20% of something else and corollaries.  20% of your clients result in 80% of your sales, for instance.  It helps allocate resources.

 

It applies here too.  Not that you should just give up on people but to generalize and stereotype, someone who eats animals because of their belief in something the Bible says is a hard sell.  My thinking would go like this: 20 people in the office means you can probably make some difference in (80%) 16 of them.  Now which 16 to put your efforts into?

Also, just because you don't see the results doesn't mean you're not getting through on some level.  This change we are asking people to make is more like turning the Queen Mary than a speedboat.  One day a piece of information will penetrate their minds and the lightbulb will go off and you'll have been a part of that transformation.

[Billy L]

As an ex-smoker myself, (who often has to work in close quarters with nicotine addicts), that comparison is brilliant! I'll mentally work out the line for myself and keep it on file. I'm also a recovering vegetarian, so I've been there too brother. ;)

The dramatic subject change is hilarious! My humor is usually dry, so I'd have to be careful - no fun explaining a punchline, or getting someone pissed at you, if you know what I mean. :D

[Billy L]

Thanks Marty. One of my most interesting conversations was with a devout Muslim coworker. He was explaining his understanding of Halal slaughter, and the "justifications" for the method, his reason for abstaining from pork consumption, etc. I worked with him for a couple of weeks, and I think definitely planted some seeds in a few ways, due mostly to the time span and the opportunity to continue conversations in an organic way. I constantly rebutted his speciesist foundation with "soft" arguments appealing to consideration of the intelligence and awareness of other animals, and to the fact that animal use (for food in this case, is unnecessary). I sometimes bring Tofurky deli slices (vegan meat analog) to have on a veggie sandwich at the local Subway (US deli chain), which is essentially the only eating-out choice in the remote location near my jobsite. I think he could identify with living in accordance to your beliefs, no matter how much of an outsider you may be at any given moment. There was a particularly interesting moment when we both stopped to get a bite to eat. He asked the "Sandwich Artist" at Subway to change her plastic gloves (she had just "created" a meat sandwich for another customer), because "we're vegetarian". Ironically he went on to order a Tuna-fish sandwich with American cheese! I lightly jabbed him for it later, in good humor. Something was getting through though, I'm quite certain.

[Billy L]

I think the leading by example is important Jeannie. I put an oval decal that simply reads vegan on my minivan recently, and my workplace is not tiny but also not a giant operation. Plenty of coworkers I know, and many I don't, are bound to notice the sticker in the parking lot. I think it's a potential conversation starter, and a "passive" way to get the idea out (as anyone reading it will draw their own conclusions).

The one-on-one situations are in a delivery truck. Having a few printed articles on hand is a great idea, to back up my claims with anyone that's truly interested in the subject (as a few have been). Many of the drivers and helpers and dockworkers, due to the physical nature of the job, are focused on energy and strength from their diet, albeit through consumption of junk like caffeine drinks and animal flesh, coupled with huge amounts of cigarettes and post-work booze hounding. Thank goodness for sites like: http://www.veganbodybuilding.org & http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/

[veganpilotmarty]

I sure hope so but my experience is that when people give up responsibility for food choices to others, including a God, their justifications far outreach our logical arguments.  I think you may influence people like that to make some different choices but their eating of meats is justified in their minds.

Lead by example.  I drag my fellow pilots miles and miles to get a good vegan meal or to a place where I can find a good vegan option, even if it's just a salad bar at a chain restaurant.

I travel with my own salad dressing and soy milk coffee creamer just so I have life's essentials.

[Paul Hansen]

This is a trivial aside: I understood why advertisers claimed, “It tastes like butter” (because in fact it seemed good for business), but I never understood why listeners actually FELL for that ploy. Why is it that people think they have to MIMIC food items that they really WANT to give up—like meat patties, butter, eggs, cheese, sausage, yogurt, or whatever? Why not just give them up and eat something ELSE? Are people so habituated that they must resort to food mimicry?