Pete Bethune's ARZ chat.

[Animal Rights]

This event, packed with Sea Shepherd fanatics, witnessed Bethune confirming that he eats meat and fishes and a whole lot more.
Once the chat transcript is up, ARZ members are welcome to discuss the content of the chat - much of which was very shocking from an animal rights point of view.

[Lee Richmond]

My apologies Roger. I really respect vegans for their choice, and have a great deal of vegan friends. But it is really frustrating when you attack other people who defend animals, instead of the worst culprits. A huge percentage of Sea Shepherd are vegans, why do you think we are such bad people? We hate any cruelty to animals, yet you respond to us as if we were chinese fur farmers.

[Tim Gier]

I was surprised to read Pete say that what disturbs him greatly is that the Japanese are whaling in areas that are not legally recognized as theirs to whale in.

He said:

"My argument to the Japanese centres more on the location. They have no right to hunt whales in Antarctica. It is the back yard of New Zealanders and Australians. Japan is so far away. Japan has no tradition of whaling in Antarctica. It also breaks many international treaties in doing so. Also, the whales often take ½ an hour to die. They gradually bleed to death. It is just appalling. No sane person can watch a whale die in such a way and then happily eat it."

He does go on to say: "I hate most aspects of animal farming as well, but if you ask me what I hate more, it is whaling. "

The effect of this is that Pete is saying, even in the limited context of whales alone, that the killing of other animals, in and of itself, is not the essential problem. The problems he has with whaling have to do with territory and how the animals die. That is to say, that even within the context of the animals which he is an advocate for, he is an advocate for them in terms of human interests and not any self-interests or self-worth which the animals themselves have.

Considering that he also admits that there are some aspects of animal agriculture which are not problematic to him, and that whales are more important to him than any other species, his position cannot be accurately described as an animal rights position at all and his views reflect the same speciesism that cause the horrors of whaling in the first place.

[Mandy Barlow]

Yep Tim. This is a cultural phenomenon.

No different that most people I know who are speciesiest hypocrites that love [insert choice of 'meat' cut here ... bacon, chicken, steak etc] but can't bear to know about how the animals are raised or die.

I was this person once too and pleased I broke out of this dark place of denial.

[Carolyn Bailey]

I agree with Rog, many, if not most, animal advocates don't know or care what animal rights is. It's therefore unfair to expect someone who desperately doesn't want to be classed as AR, to understand fully what AR is.

I don't think this chat's purpose was ever to dissect Pete's concept of animal rights, nor was it to criticise him for his lack of rights based philosophy.

Pete was gracious and showed class and dignity under difficult circumstances in his chat. Pete acknowledged the respect he has for vegans, and stated he was on the path to veganism.

Pete's acknowledgment of not being perfect was based on the fact that he consumed flesh on his journey home. He realises this was not appropriate; his honesty was refreshing. Most people would have lied about this. He ate anything that was placed in front of him, he didn't specifically order any dead flesh he could get his hands on.

Of course, I strongly disagree with anyone who is complicit in the violence associated with animal agriculture or animal use in any way. However, when someone states their goal is veganism, and there is an opportunity to educate that person, along with hundreds of his fans, I don't think criticising him is the best option.

[Tim Gier]

Roger:

Do you see this same kind of problem with some in the animal movement who talk considerably about the environment and the "natural animals" left in the world? They are not conservationists exactly, but are they fully engaged with animal rights?

Tim

[Tim Gier]

Carolyn:

It is difficult to at once recognize or celebrate the man and his actions without also noting the incongruencies in his positions. At the same time, it is important to engage with people where they are and to build on those things on which we are in agreement. That is often hard to do even between people who ostensibly have the same goals, nevermind those who don't. So I agree with you that an opportunity was not capitalized on as well as it might otherwise could have been. I do not envy you the job you have in trying to maintain some sense of order (or at least minimize the chaos!) in these chats.

You are right, Pete handled himself well in a free-wheeling discussion and was gracious with his time and opinions. I also think that he was quite honest in saying that while he comes from a family of hunter-gatherers, he knows that he should get past it, and he's trying. Still, it's alarming to me how easily his fans defend the killing of some animals just because Pete works so hard to save others.

Tim

[Lee Richmond]

You all seem to ignore the fact that whaling is one of the extreme ends of animal abuses. While I'm not condoning the killing of cows or sheep,no abbatoir in the world allows any of these animals to be killed in a way that takes them half an hour to die. If you attack everyone who is trying to do some good in the world, you just end up being classed as a minority of fundamental nutters. And rightly so. Any abuse of an animal is intolerable. But humans are and always have been omnivores. Good on you for your lifestyle. It is a righteous one, but I suggest you go out and stop the vivisectioners, the crate and battery farmers, the fur farmers etc first. As I do.

[blackpanther]

sorry if I make mistakes, as I'm french.....

lee, don't forget farm animals suffer not just half an hour, but ALL THEIR MISERABLE LIFE in industrial and battery farms, they're abused every day.
You cannot say that some animals deserve more care than others: all non human animals are sentient beings, who feel pain, fear, bad treatment...

I think a mouse or a cat, a cow or a bear, or a whale are equally important and should be treated with as much respect as human animals.......and none be exploited by men

That is the main difference for me between AR and conservation.

But, Pete the man in himself is a very courageous and active person, I don't criticize what he does, as I wouldn't do it. But I think that, belonging to a movement such as sea shepherd, he should try to put his "eating habits" in concordance with the ideal that sea shepherd tries to show, saying they are vegan. Hadn't he come here for a chat, I would have been absolutely persuaded he was vegan, of course, as in people's mind, I think sea shepherd is linked with being vegan.......
I discovered the reality......and I don't agree with that sad reality. For me, all non human animals are equal and should be respected and well treated. We are one kind, us and them!
And, I think this chat will make Pete think about what he eats in the future.
Whales are not more important to save than pigs or cows, in my opinion!

[Lucy Robinson]

In regard to "Sea Shepherd being linked with being vegan." You must remember there are many Sea Shepherds that never make it onto the ships. A better statement would be: The Sea Shepherds crew members on the Steve Irwin & Bob Barker are linked with being vegan. I'm not sure what the dietary rules were on the Ady Gil.