Transcript of ARZone Workshop 8 on Too Vegan or Vegan Enough?

[Carolyn Bailey]

Transcript of ARZone Workshop 8

Are You Too Vegan or Are You Vegan Enough?

29 October 2011

6pm US Eastern Time

11pm UK Time

30 October 2011

8am Australian Eastern Standard Time

 

 

 

Carolyn Bailey:

ARZone is pleased to present the next in our series of Member’s Workshops.

 

ARZone aims to host Member’s Workshops as an opportunity to involve all members in a conversation about issues and opinions raised in previous Guest Q&A sessions, in order to think critically about those questions and answers to involve all members in open dialogue, to explore certain issues more fully, and to consider the ways we can all become more informed and better advocates for other animals.

 

The proposed topic for this week’s Workshop is “Are You Too Vegan or are You Vegan Enough?”

 

Thank you for joining us today to share your thoughts. We encourage free and open dialogue from all members, so please feel free to add comments at any time today.

 

There has been some controversy lately over the fact that some vegans admit to occasionally eating bone-char filtered sugar, or perhaps honey. These people often face quite a backlash from within the online vegan community. We’d like to explore these issues (some people are referred to as the “vegan police”) as well as whether advocating for veganism causes burnout.

 

First up, here’s a part of Dino Sarma’s response to a question about what makes a person vegan:

 

“A vegan is someone who views the use of other creatures, be it human or otherwise, as something that’s morally indefensible. The moral baseline is what defines (to me) a vegan. The diet & lifestyle are the physical manifestation of the moral stance. It’s kind of why I view veganism as a struggle to reduce harm. There’s no such thing as /no/ harm. I understand that, and I think everyone does.

 

When harvesting my bunches of kale in mass farms, there are going to be bugs that are run over, or killed during the cleaning process. In the creation of many of the products that I take for granted (pain medicine, various food additives, etc) there are horrible animal tests that go on. I’m not going to condone them, and I’m going to do my best to avoid those things, but at the end of the day, I’d still like to live my life without boycotting myself into a corner.”

 

Please let us know what you think about this. Does being vegan entail boycotting oneself into a corner? Are you constantly on the lookout for obscure ingredients in everything you eat?

 

Anna Zes:

Interesting question

 

Adam Little:

Glad to be here...

 

Dino Sarma:

FOR THE RECORD: I don't eat bone char sugar.

Just puttin' it out there.

 

Adam Little:

Okay

 

Roger Yates:

For the record, I don't eat CDs

 

cavall de quer:

booo

 

Adam Little:

Not even with hot sauce Roger?

 

Dino Sarma:

I /do/ tend to avoid the obvious crap, like Lanolin or whatever. That shit's easy.

 

Adam Little:

Now according to that definition... can someone eat meat and still be consistent with it?

 

Sky:

:-D

 

Dino Sarma:

And there's that one book? Animal Ingredients A -Z or something. It's helped a lot.

 

Lisa Viger:

Ahh, but which one do you eat? The organic sugar grown WITH bone meal or the beet sugar that's GMO?

 

Dino Sarma:

Like if it's got the lactic acids or whatever I tend to avoid it.

 

Adam Little:

That is a great source Dino

 

Anna Zes:

No, in most countries in EU big supermarkets now have a corner for health-minded people and these ingredients are also used by vegans, so its relatively easy to access vegan ingredients compared to the past

 

Spela Suscovic:

Whenever I find out something isn't vegan, I don't use it anymore. And yes, I read all the labels.

 

Dino Sarma:

Same here, Spela.

I think there's some vitamin that's animal derived? d3? Something. Either way, if a cereal has that stuff, I'll avoid it.

Elaine Vigneault:

I do my best to avoid animal products but I've realized over the years that my brain can only handle so much information. So I use tools like iphone apps to look up ingredients. However I'm ok with allowing some "trace ingredients" into my diet and the diets of my family members, particularly when I feel doing so can help persuade others to adopt a diet that's more animal-friendly

Adam Little:

But, of course, no one can be 100% vegan.  This is obvious, and really, it shouldn't matter

Non-vegans like to use an appeal to hypocrisy on this fact.

 

Gary Smith:

I think there's a difference between what I can control and what I cannot. What I can control isn't all that difficult to follow.

 

Dino Sarma:

But at the end of the day, I'd also like to do some basic things, like eat. When I'm in the living hell that is my hubby's hometown (in backwater Illinois)?

 

Anna Zes:

Agree with Adam, hypocrisy in veganism is often cited by its opponents

 

Dino Sarma:

I'll ask about milk and eggs in the bread, but won't sit around for three hours with the ingredients list.

 

Adam Little:

three hours? :-D

 

Spela Suskovic:

What you can't control, isn't hypocrisy, or is it?

 

Brandon Becker:

I don't think bone-char processed sugar should be equated with honey. One is a plant product processed with animal byproducts whereas another is an animal product that sustains bee-exploitation itself.

 

Adam Little:

What can't we control though?

 

Dino Sarma:

I'm with you, Brandon.

 

Adam Little:

Is there a list?

Do we need a list?

 

Dino Sarma:

I'd still sooner avoid both though, y'know?

 

Adam Little:

Or should we just be focusing on minimum standards of decency?

 

Anna Zes:

Spela, do you mean that food labels may not be trustworthy?

 

Spela Suskovic:

we sometimes walk on a bug unintentionally?

 

Barbara DeGrande:

There are lists of chemicals to avoid. Even orange juice may have milk products in it.

 

Elaine Vigneault:

The hypocrisy argument is simply a strawman. They are just as or more hypocritical by eating pigs but not dogs. Or by donating to one charity but not all charities.

 

Adam Little:

Yes, that's what I heard... I never bought OJ in the first place, but for other people...

 

Spela Suskovic:

Anna, I hope they are.

 

cavall de quer:

Not if you squeeze it yourself...

 

Brandon Becker:

Yep, don't buy bone-char processed sugar but I don't worry about eating products that may or may not be made with it. I never buy honey or consume it in anything.

 

Adam Little:

I agree Elaine

 

Gary Smith:

Dino - Don't you generally eat mostly whole foods?

 

Luk:

I don't think veganism requires boycotting ourselves into a corner at all. Avoiding animal products in foods is easy. Avoiding the problems those foods cause on a greater scale is more difficult. And like Brandon said, bone-char sugar and honey are not the same.

 

Dino Sarma:

It's like Colleen Patrick Godreau, Elaine.

Gary - Of course!

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Dino, Colleen Patrick Goudreau is fantastic

 

Anna Zes:

oh right! ;yes, we do step on ants and other creatures, but when we buy food it is a choice we make

 

Adam Little:

Now... what of bone char in the water? What do we know about that?

 

Dino Sarma:

"Don't do nothing because you can't do everything."

 

Elaine Vigneault:

I agree that sugar and honey are in different categories. When you see honey on the label then you know it's honey. But when you see "sugar" then it may be bonechar or it may not - and chances are it is not

 

Adam Little:

Yes Elaine. Honey is much more easily avoidable.

 

Dino Sarma:

And blatantly obvious.

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I agree with that too, Elaine

 

Brandon Becker:

I wouldn't buy a bone-char water filter, but I'm still going to drink water if my municipal water uses it or if I'm drinking water somewhere that uses a bone-char water filtered water.

 

Dino Sarma:

How do we all feel about mono and diglycerides?

 

cavall de quer:

errrrr

 

Spela Suskovic:

It's the same with Vitamin D, when it doesn't say on the label whether it is plant- or animal-based.

 

Roger Yates:

Good question Dino. I have researched that. Didn't get far.

 

Brandon Becker:

I don't eat products with mono and diglycerides if I know they are definitely animal-derived. If it may or may not be from an animal, I would eat it if there is no clear vegan option availble.

 

Dino Sarma:

I know the stuff in crisco is vegan, so I'll buy that.

And there's a couple of bread companies here that let me know theirs is plant based.

Haven't gotten much further than that.

 

Adam Little:

Vitamin D2 is plant based isn't it?  Or is D3?

 

cavall de quer:

What is this stufff?

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Spela - yes, with vitamin D the line I tend to draw is that it's OK for family members but maybe not for me. I don't need as much vitamin D as my son (he's African American and I am not) so there's that.

 

Adam Little:

I would buy Living Vegan in a Non-Vegan world

 

Spela Suskovic:

Yes, Vitamin D2 is ok

 

Dino Sarma:

They're fats, Cavall.

They're used in many processed foods and the like in the USA.

 

cavall de quer:

but not animal fats?

 

Dino Sarma:

MOST of the time, it's from soybean, corn, or palm oil.

sometimes, it's from those horrible rendering plants.

 

cavall de quer:

I see

 

Roger Yates:

Palm oil - there's an issue.

 

Adam Little:

I was about to say Roger

 

Roger Yates:

Lots of "vegan" things have palm oil in it.

 

Adam Little:

I try to avoid that as well. Sure

 

cavall de quer:

indeed - just reading it up today - horrifying, if true

 

Elaine Vigneault:

I don't worry about mono or diglycerides. I don't think they constitute much of my diet anyway.

 

Dino Sarma:

Here's the way I see it, you gais. All of us have a line, right? A sort of imaginary line about what we can and cannot cross. Like, I know folk who eat vegan 99.99% of the time, but won't ask questions about the honey in their iced tea from the bottle.

 

Adam Little:

Should there be a line that everyone shouldn't cross? Would it even make sense to create such a standard?

 

Dino Sarma:

Or like, there's those who are vegetarian (like my parents), who eat gelatine in things.

Or, like people who are "pescatarian" who'll have the occasional bacon something or other.

Point is that we've all got a line, however close to us it may be.

 

Elaine Vigneault:

I think most people spend a certain amount of time learning about ingredients when they go vegan and they try to avoid animal ingredients, but then they stop trying and draw their line there.

 

Dino Sarma:

At the end of the day, each of us needs to determine our own line, because it's going to vary, from person to person, and situation to situation.

 

Brandon Becker:

Eating honey is a line someone shouldn't cross - it's unnecessary, easily avoided, and sustains bee exploitation. Much different than questions about minute animal-byproducts such as mono and diglycerides.

 

Spela Suskovic:

I try not to have a line. Every day I try to be a better vegan. And do my research.

 

cavall de quer:

good comment, Spela

 

Adam Little:

I agree Spela.  I'm always willing to evolve

 

Dino Sarma:

I'm totally in agreement, Spela.

 

Spela Suskovic:

:-)

 

Dino Sarma:

Elaine: I think that's mainly from frustration, y'know?

 

Adam Little:

But what should matter, as you say, is that they consider the use and exploitation of other animals as indefensible

 

Elaine Vigneault:

They might revisit it later and learn more and re-purify their diet or they might not

 

Dino Sarma:

There's just SO MANY animal ingreidents, hidden and otherwise, that it gets exhausting. Having a freaking glass of wine with a friend becomes a herculean chore.

 

Anna Zes:

agree with Dino, its exchausting eating vegan when the mainstream is eating mainly animal products

 

Dino Sarma:

And they keep hiding weird animal shit all over the place. It's infuriating.

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Dino, I agree. Frustration with how much animal ag has infiltrated all foods

 

Dino Sarma:

Why does every SINGLE margarine have to have fckig WHEY?

 

Brandon Becker:

I think we shouldn't eat any flesh, milk, eggs, honey. I also think we should avoid derivatives from these products as much as we can but avoiding the primary products should be our advocacy message.

 

Lisa Viger:

I find that, as being vegan becomes more and more an ingrained habit, I find even more vegan alternatives. For example, I recently found a watercolor paper that's not sized with gelatin (yay!) I feel like I'm always working on the "details."

 

Elaine Vigneault:

But we just have to keep reminding ourselves that if the primary uses for animal products disappear, it's very likely that all the secondary uses will be replaced with better or cheaper plant-based alternatives too.

 

cavall de quer:

right on Elaine!

 

Elaine Vigneault:

So we should focus on the primary ways in which our society exploits animals - meat, dairy, eggs, leather, experiments

ok - break :-)

 

Spela Suskovic:

This is frustrating for me because it is difficult to advise someone who is interesting in veganism what to buy.

 

Richard McMahan:

this is great!

 

Tim Gier:

I agree Richard! This has been fantastic so far!

Spela Suskovic:

Fantastic :-)

 

Dino Sarma:

Spela: This is why I always advise people to start small. First learn to cook vegetables, grains, beans, etc. Then, incoroporate other things, one at a time, until you've got a good, solid diet going, right?

 

Spela Suskovic:

Thanks, Dino :-)

 

Dino Sarma:

Once you do that, the processed stuff can come in, a bit at a time, with your level (or "line") of personal comfort.

 

Adam Little:

Who has read Dan Cudahy's essay Veganism the minimum standard of decency? He states that veganism is basically abstaining from the unnecessary and intentional suffering and death of other animals

 

Dino Sarma:

It's what I did when I went vegan.

 

Spela Suskovic:

good advice :-)

 

Anna Zes:

I suspect the more we abstain from processed foods of all sorts, vegan even, the best we know we have harmed no animal...

 

cavall de quer:

Anyone remember their first consciously vegan meal?  Wasn't it great?

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Spela - it depends what their goal is. If they're interested in health then a simple way to avoid hidden animal products is to avoid processed foods at stores and restaurants. That also tends to be good for your health

 

Spela Suskovic:

I agree - the more natural your food is the better.

 

Anna Zes:

yes cavall! For me it was a pizza with flaxseed and soya as basis and plain tomato with chilli as topping (i hope that was 'vegan enough'!)

 

Elaine Vigneault:

But if their goal is animal rights or environmentalism and/or they're hooked on processed foods (raises hand) then you can just tell them to avoid the obvious animal ingredients for now until they adjust and learn more

 

Adam Little:

That it's tantamount to not running over or assaulting someone on the way to work

 

Spela Suskovic:

One step at the time, as I did it.

 

Anna Zes:

agree

 

Elaine Vigneault:

cavall - sorry I don't remember what it was.

 

cavall de quer:

:-O

 

Anna Zes:

could vegetarianism be considered this 'one step at a time' process? or even advocated as a middle ground towards veganism?

 

Adam Little:

Personally, I wouldn't Anna

 

Anna Zes:

Ok, why ?

 

Elaine Vigneault:

I was 13 the first time I went vegan. That lasted a year. The second time I went vegan was 5 years ago.

 

Spela Suskovic:

Many of us were vegetarians first.

 

cavall de quer:

theoretically not, but economically, if the meat market collapsed, so would a lot of other animal exploitations.

 

Adam Little:

I would support someone taking gradual steps towards veganism, but I wouldn't advocate that vegetarianism is a defensible choice

 

Richard McMahon:

we do the least we can.

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Anna, yes, I think it can be. I think it's a "natural" way for many people to transition.

 

Spela Suskovic:

Adam, I agree.

 

Lisa Viger:

Anna, I think vegetarianism can be considered a step in the right direction. As somone learns more about how eggs and milk are produced, they would probably want to move on to veganism though.

Anna Zes:

So you wouldnt advocate vegetarianism for animal rights, but would you advocate it as a gradual 'step' (only) towards the final goal: veganism?

 

Elaine Vigneault:

But I try to remind people that calorie for calorie, eggs tend to cause the most suffering

 

cavall de quer:

I thought it was milk?

where's that chart of calories per life, anyone remember?

 

Lisa Viger:

Anna, I wouldn't advocate for vegetarianism for animal rights myself. There's a lot of abuse in milk and eggs. And they all wind up slaughtered in the end, as well.

 

Elaine Vigneault:

I advocate for reduced consumption or the elimination of the consumption of animal products. Depending on the person, that may be the case that I will suggest lacto-ovo vegetarianism

 

Adam Little:

I would agree with that Anna.  What entices someone to consider the production of eggs and milk if we support the notion that vegetarianism should be adopted?

Example Elaine?

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Adam - of a person?

 

Adam Little:

That you suggest lacto-ovo vegentarianism too, yes

 

Elaine Vigneault:

OK, if I'm promoting veganism and an animal-eater comes up and says "I could go vegetarian but not vegan" then I say "OK go vegetarian!" But I always also clearly distinguish between lacto-ovo vegetarianism and strict vegetarianism (aka dietary veganism).

 

Anna Zes:

From my experience its easier to get into vegetarianism cause it still gets to people protein from animals (CHEESE) and they can slowly substitute meat for cheese. From then on, they can gradually start forgetting cheese and discover tofu.

 

Spela Suskovic:

I always suggest veganism, but if a person is not sure, I can suggest gradual transition.

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Same thing as when they say "I could never give up cheese" I say, "OK can you give up eggs? How about liquid milk and yogurt?"

 

Adam Little:

Go vegetarian if you want to... but I think the end result should be veganism, and I wouldn't tell anyone otherwise.

 

Anna Zes:

agree with Elaine's 'open-ended' advocacy

we need not scare people away

 

Julie Jordan:

Hi folks as I view veganism as a social justice matter rather than a diet, I try to operate on doing the least harm from a range of social justice perspectives, eg animals, workers, earth etc

 

Dino Sarma:

I'm with you, Julie!

 

Elaine Vigneault:

I don't pressure them to take it further than they consider acheivable

 

Adam Little:

Does vegetarianism reduce animal product consumption though?

 

Spela Suskovic:

I don't think so, Adam.

Elaine Vigneault:

I think it's good to push people a little further than they're comfortable with, but pushing them too far can make them dig in and stop trying to change at all

Adam - yes it does

 

Adam Little:

I think it is likely that someone will eat MORE eggs and milk to substitute the meat they once ate

 

Anna Zes:

I think vegetarianism stops meat eating, isnt that a small success?

 

Tim Gier:

Are we interested in reducing the consumption of other animals by us, or are we interested in seeing an elimination of the killing of others?

 

Barbara DeGrande:

Not just killing, all use.

 

Spela Suskovic:

I just think that when people become vegetarians they start to think about the problems with animal exploitation.

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Most people do not substitute all the meat in their diet with dairy and eggs when they go veg. They substitute some of it with dairy and eggs, but some of it gets replaced with plants like yummy BEANS

 

Adam Little:

Elimination or "perfection" doesn't seem to be an attainable goal

 

Anna Zes:

Yes Adam, for an adjustment period they will abuse cheese (I did this). But then gradually they might start to get 'hardcore' into vegan as they educate themselves.

 

Adam Little:

Or is that not what you meant Tim?

 

Dino Sarma:

I honestly thought that being vegetarian was enough.

All the major "animal rights" orgs kept sayin "vegetarian" over and over.

 

Adam Little:

Would you tell someone that when the animals become unproductive they are slaughtered anyway?

 

Dino Sarma:

Yeah, see, I'd say go vegan to do that, but don't sweat the small stuff in the beginning, like the millions of additives and junk. If it's obviously an animal product, avoid. Else, avoid when you learn that it is an issue.

It's what worked for me. I had to kind of stick my fingers in my ears for the first few weeks, because otherwise I'd have been overwhelmed.

 

Adam Little:

But, should we be advocating vegetarianism if someone isn't receptive to veganism?

 

Dino Sarma:

So I avoided the big ones: dairy, eggs, honey, etc. And then, as I learned about the more specific issues, I avoided them over time.

 

Tim Gier:

What I mean is, are we concerned with what we each consume, or are we concerned with the lives of other animals.

 

Elaine Vigneault:

the latter, Tim

 

Adam Little:

I agree, the latter

 

Spela Suskovic:

Yes, the latter

 

Tim Gier:

We ought to be advocating that people stop supporting the killing of other animals.

 

Elaine Vigneault:

We should be advocating for the animals.

 

Tim Gier:

what she said

Adam Little:

Right

Spela Suskovic:

No, Adam, I would advocate veganism, but wouldn't be so hard on someone if he is a little slow.

 

Dino Sarma:

Correct, Tim. Like when they kill off the  veal calves, or male chicks, or "spent" chickens or cows.

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Which means that we should advocate for the change that someone is able and willing to make that will help animals. In some cases that will be vegetarianism and in others it will be veganism.

 

Anna Zes:

we then agree that vegetarianism is part of the vegan advocacy?

 

Spela Suskovic:

I know many people that became vegan over night. But not all people are willing to do that .

 

Tim Gier:

It seems to me that if people accept that other animals ought not to be killed, then they will come to conclusions about what that entails. We won't have to tell them.

 

Sadia:

Absolutely

 

Barbara DeGrande:

I disagree. Many people do not know about the newborn chicks or the veal calves that are related to vegetarianism.

 

Adam Little:

If someone comes to the conclusion that other animals ought not to be killed... to we believe that that could lead to vegetarianism?

 

Anna Zes:

yes, and if they learn how cows are 'raped' to produce milk, there goes vegetarianism out of the window!

 

Tim Gier:

We don't know what leads to veganism.

 

Anna Zes:

Barbara, I don't know how veal calves are into vegetarian, msg me privately a link?!

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Barbara - very true. The other day I was tabling and someone came up and asked about eating eggs from a neighbor's backyard chickens. I explained that my concern isn't  directly related to that but that you have to wonder what happened to the males. What will happen to all the male chicks? You could see in her eyes the lighbulb go on. She was already vegetarian but that helped kick her over the edge to considering veganism more seriously

 

Adam Little:

I agree.

But the concern here seems to be that if we can get someone to accept vegetarianism then we should be sastified with that.

 

Anna Zes:

Agree with Tim, you show people the facts about animal exploitation and pain and they choose what they want to do with it, vegetarianism, veganism straight, hardcore, whatever

Adam Little:

At least for the moment

Richard McMahon:

Game on! jump in when you can Dino

 

Spela Suskovic:

Anna, I agree

 

Dino Sarma:

For the most part, people think that going to get the organic free range chicken's eggs is enough. It makes me sad. :-(

 

Anna Zes:

AGREE WITH DINO!

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I have find that as well, Dino.

 

Anna Zes:

thats misinformation Dino...

 

Tim Gier:

Here's a view contrary to mine: "The police are those who keep others from challenging the dominant social order. So the real people policing vegans are the very people calling others the 'vegan police.'"

From this http://www.veganideal.org/content/backlash-and-name-calling  (thanks to Brandon Becker for the quote and the link)

 

Dino Sarma:

It's why I err on the side of "ANY kind of animal use is wrong", rather than "good on you for using slightly less suffering and slavery"

 

Adam Little:

Shouldn't we also make it clear that abstaining from animal exploitation doesn't just entail what we eat?  But practically every product we may consume?

 

Alicia Sangineti:

I agree with Tim!

 

Dino Sarma:

They're quite capable of spraining an arm in patting themselves on the back for any little thing. They don't need me to do so.

 

Adam Little:

Seems to be related to the claim of moral relativity Tim, yes

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Dino - I think that depends on the demographic you're engaged with. I noticed that the free range discussions tend to occur in places where people are better educated, wealthier, and/or self-proclaimed "animal rescuers" who help cats and dogs. When it's just the average Joe on the street, he rarely brings up organic or "free"-range farms at all

Adam Little:

I would say that the average Joe does purport to care about animals. It's just such a wide range of degrees, and remains so vague

 

Spela Suskovic:

We ought to tell people about chicks and calves, but it is really up to them what they will do with this information. In my experience, people are either shocked or they don't want to know anything about it.

 

Richard McMahon:

Actually, I get 'free range" all the time!

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Yeah, but I'm talking about people involved in animal rescue, like people who work in shelters

 

Anna Zes:

you own chickens Richard?

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Agreed, Adam. I think if you asked most people they would see themselves as people who care very much for other animals

 

Anna Zes:

unfortunatelly people in shelters are a weird mix, they can be meat eaters, even hunters to my knowledge (using dogs for hunting), they are not into veganism... and that must be corrected.

They have a short-signted view of what 'rescuing animals' means.

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Anna, well yes, that's true. But it's also true that they've thought about the issue deeply enough to conclude that the most horrific abuses that take place on factory farms are unacceptable

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Average Joe hasn't gotten that far yet.

 

Anna Zes:

exactly Elaine

 

Adam Little:

Can we all agree that our focus should be primarily on the "average Joe" and not whether or not someone here consumes bone char?

 

Dino Sarma:

But they /can/. They just need enough of us insisting that vegan is not only possible, but workable.

Yes, Adam! I'm exactly in that thinking too. :-)

 

Anna Zes:

we could draw a pyramid of moral progress now:-) from average joe to shelter volunteer to vegetarian to top: vegan

 

Lisa Viger:

I can agree with that Adam

 

Spela Suskovic:

I agree, Adam.

 

Anna Zes:

agree Adam!

 

Adam Little:

I'm glad :-)

 

Dino Sarma:

Adam: If we're to be successful, we'll need to demystify the whole process. Bogging down with specifics in the first few months can be off-putting.

 

Anna Zes:

good topic, how does the majority enter hardcore diets?:-P

 

Tim Gier:

I agree with you too Adam, and you Dino

 

Spela Suskovic:

We don't want to scare average Joe off!

 

Dino Sarma:

The way I got to be a vegan was that someone told me that I should stop taking in dairy and eggs, and here are some major places they show up. Once I understood that, I understood that there are all kind of other places that animal products show up. It only took me a couple of weeks, but I had the time and money to research it. Average Jane should be encouraged to get to the more specific ingredients, once she's committed to going vegan in the first place. And? Once she understands that /any/ exploitation is wrong.

 

Anna Zes:

for me, problem is learn how to cook vegan without losing taste and enjoyment of food

there's a lot of self-education involved

 

Dino Sarma:

And that it's all connected: the treatment of factory farm workers is as slave-inducing as the animals themselves.

Yo, Anna. I'm a chef. :-)

 

Adam Little:

And if enough people become vegan we then won't need to worry about the specific ingredients anymore.

 

Anna Zes:

ah, thats why it must have a been a bit easier for you Dino:-P

 

Dino Sarma:

No no, Anna, I became a chef and wrote a cookery book /after/ going vegan.

XD

 

Anna Zes:

AH!

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Dino - sounds good. And/or Jane should be encouraged to become an advocate so she can influence many other Janes, Joes, Juanitas, and Jaromes to go veg :-)

 

Dino Sarma:

(Other way around. Wrote a cookery book and became a chef, in that order.) I think you folks are awfully intelligent, and I love how you "get it" when I say something like "Let's get them vegan first, then let the rest follow."

 

If it's cooking you're wanting, I'm here for you!

 

Richard McMahon:

Why would you not sacrifice a bit of health to this effort?

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I think it's important not to focus on the diet too much, there is a lot more exploitation taking place in other areas too

 

Adam Little:

I agree Carolyn

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Carolyn -what do you mean exactly?

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I mean that there is lots more exploitation in other animals being used for entertainment, clothing, companions etc, it's important not to just concentrate on food

 

Spela Suskovic:

I agree

 

Anna Zes:

Carolyn, you mean that even vegan foods may cause pain (in latin american factories of soya where they pay little for workforce?)

aha, ok

 

Dino Sarma:

Correct, Carolyn, but I beleive it was Erik Marcus who mentioned that in the USA, the meat industry accounts for like 90% of the animal murdering.

 

Adam Little:

Honestly, I would hope though that if I convinced someone not to consume animal products then they would naturally conclude that leather, fur, and products that are tested on animals and the like would simiarly be unacceptable.

 

Dino Sarma:

However like you said, if we bring it to a larger picture issue, we'd have an easier time of it.

 

Adam Little:

Of course, I would make it clear that they are.

 

Anna Zes:

Yes of course Carolyn, going vegan while buying tickets to zoos is not exactly animal loving.

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Carolyn - How do you mean the word "more"? Do you actually mean more suffering?

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I meant more, as in, in addition to being used for food.

 

Dino Sarma:

"Why is it wrong to have a zoo?" "Because an animal is not there for your entertainment."

 

Adam Little:

I will say that I think that animal agriculture necessarily validates most of all other animal exploitation

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Consider this: http://www.countinganimals.com/is-vegan-outreach-right-about-how-many-animals-suffer-to-death/

 

Adam Little:

Since it is the most pervasive and destructive

 

Dino Sarma:

"Why shouldn't we test medicines on animals?" "Because animals cannot freely consent to the procedures, and to put your needs above that of the animal's is wrong."

 

Lisa Viger:

I think the food part is really, really important though ... we do it three times a day while we may go to the zoo once a year.

 

Spela Suskovic:

I think we should talk to people about other problems (zoos, experiments, fur...) - by that we can at least get them to start thinking about animal exploitation.

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Our food choices matter the most. The vast majority of animal exploitation (including suffering and death) is as a result of the food industry

 

Adam Little:

That's true Elaine

 

Dino Sarma:

They do, you gais, but the thing is, that they are all connected, and making a life-long vegan comes from showing those connections.

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Carolyn, yes that's right.

 

Anna Zes:

So is veganism raising conscience on other areas of animla exploitation? We have any statistics that show vegetarians/vegans do avoid zoos and live animal shows?

 

Lisa Viger:

Right, I get ya, Carolyn.

 

Dino Sarma:

As in, the food is important, but the social justice and the rest is important too. You can't be an ARA and a racist.

 

Elaine Vigneault:

I feel that most people once they make the food choices to prevent animal suffering and death then the other choices tend to happen naturally.

 

Anna Zes:

interesting point Dino

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I agree, certainly, that animals used for food make up the majority of those exploited, I was just suggesting that we shouldn't forget about other forms of exploitation as well.

 

Anna Zes:

lifestyle vegans or health-based vegans, do go to zoos etc....

 

Dino Sarma:

It's why it frustrates me to see a healthy, happy vegan, like Alicia Silverstone, show up in a Magazine like Vogue, wearing freaking silk. :-(

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I agree, Anna

 

Adam Little:

Ah hah!

 

Lisa Viger:

Hey, it's Jordan! Hi Jordan!

 

Sky:

Hey Jordan!!!

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Jordan :-)

 

Spela Suskovic:

Hi Jordan!

 

Sky:

How is the bottom of the world???

 

Jordan Wyatt:

Superb, knowing such nice people as yourselves!

 

Adam Little:

Hi Angela!

 

Lisa Viger:

Hi Angela!

 

Jordan Wyatt:

I have a question, how should we deal with Vegans who are in some way "non Vegan"?

 

Spela Suskovic:

Hi Angela!

 

Jordan Wyatt:

should we JUMP on them?

 

Lisa Viger:

You mean physically?

 

Jordan Wyatt:

is there any other way Lisa?

 

Jordan Wyatt:

and call it out?  Or...do we somehow "get around to it eventually"?

 

Adam Little:

I did that once... he said GET OFF

 

Anna Zes:

in which way are they nonvegan?

 

Dino Sarma:

I get what Caroyln is saying: if we don't make strong connections between the suffering of /all/ creatures, we're going to end up with people who call themselves vegan, and then go buy leather jackets.

 

Anna Zes:

you mean hypocrites?

 

Jordan Wyatt:

in matters such as "honey"

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Jordan, depends on the person and your relationship to them. Also depends on your goals.

 

Jordan Wyatt:

When you're with a Vegan friend and they ask "do you eat honey?"

and you say "um, no, I'm Vegan..."

 

Dino Sarma:

Jordan: I roll my eyes internally, gently remind them that honey is from an animal, and move on.

 

Anna Zes:

again the hypocrisy issue:-)

 

Jordan Wyatt:

and then you get that weird little pause and "...oh...because...I do..."

 

Adam Little:

I would hope that that would be the response Jordan

Honey should obviously be vegan, at least to me.

 

Elaine Vigneault:

For example, I have no problem telling my husband that something he's doing/eating isn't vegan. He reacts like "wow I didn't know that" and then he stops. Easy.

 

Anna Zes:

Adam, how so?

 

Jordan Wyatt:

I've found it most difficult when meeting other Vegans for the first time, to realise we have very large differences on some issues

 

Adam Little:

lol so simple Elaine!

 

Jordan Wyatt:

such as Ms Grandin...

 

Angela Wright:

Diet is easy to sort out. . knowing about what cosmetics are tested on animals comes later. Who goes to zoos/circuses that often anyway. Once one is vegan one will realise that prisons for animals are wrong. often

 

Lisa Viger:

well, I might talk with them and ask why they're doing something

 

Elaine Vigneault:

If it's a friend or someone you feel comfortable with then I'd just start calling them a beegan

 

cavall de quer:

Very true, Jordan

 

Elaine Vigneault:

they would get the hint

 

Adam Little:

Why is honey obviously vegan Anna?

 

Dino Sarma:

LOL I've gotten a couple of friends to do that, Elaine.

 

Jordan Wyatt:

"I think its great to cause less suffering as a nebulous concept, if there are so many units of pain, to grant less pain, slaughterhouse designers should be congratulated for what they do to help other animals" , coming from a Vegan

 

Anna Zes:

I don't now the answer to that Adam, I ask others to find out

 

Angela Wright:

Using honey is theft. Stealing is wrong.

 

Lisa Viger:

Well, but after I became vegan I did get honey from a neighbor's bees. The bees weren't harmed. I saw them. I stopped eating honey for reasons other than harm. But there are many vegans who eat organic/grown in bonemeal/blood meal/feathers who would

jump all over me. That's why I stopped, Angela ... the theft part.

 

Elaine Vigneault:

I wrote this about honey: http://www.vegansoapbox.com/why-vegans-avoid-honey/

 

Angela Wright:

Its harder to know if veg are grown with bonemeal Honey is obviously theft. bees make it for themselves not for humans. They are not even paid the minimum wage!

 

Dino Sarma:

OMG speaking of minimum wage. Have y'all heard of the Florida tomato farmers exploiting those workers?

I'd call those tomatoes fairly not vegan too. :-(

 

Lisa Viger:

Dino, they're paid about $.01 a pound to pick those tomatoes.

 

Dino Sarma:

That's depressing, Lisa.

 

Lisa Viger:

yep

 

Dino Sarma:

Kind of makes my pizza feel like blood pizza. What a mess.

 

Anna Zes:

Dino,yes its late but not for me:-P

 

Angela Wright:

All my kids are vegans . One great vegan family. My elder 2 boys have married vegans . One now lives in LA with his wife's vegan familynearby

 

Barbara DeGrande:

Wonderful Angela!

 

Anne Logan:

Hi guys, haven't long got to join in, been reading furiously!

 

Angela Wright:

I'm seeing them on a cruise in March (where they first met  www.atasteofhealth.org

goodnight all,nice discovering you all.

 

Anna Zes:

Jordan has a lot of issues regarding the question ''are you vegan ENOUGH?''

so please Jordan say something:-

 

Julie Jordan:

Hi again for me the primary focus is on reducing the explotation, control & murder of nonhuman animals, ONE strategy is to be a vegan, which for me is a wholistic phylospohy, & extends to all animals & the earth :-)

 

Anne Logan:

Hi everyone, I am newly vegan and I'd like to share with you a comment that REALLY helped me compared to some I've seen that didn't bother me but I know REALLY got other people's back up.

 

Anna Zes:

what's the comment then Anne?

 

Anne Logan:

A vegan friend explained how she went vegan, from pescatarian, to vegetarian to vegan and said to me "I'm really excited you're thinking about it" ... no pressure just an offer of help.

 

Tim Gier:

There's a second topic I'd like to raise, just to get it out there, you can of course continue your discussion as you please.

 

In response to a question about eating at non-vegan restaurants, Gary Smith said: “I also hear the point of view that if vegans purchase vegan options at non-vegan restaurants, then they will add more vegan items to the menu.

 

That may or may not be the case, but if we are talking about a large chain like Chipotle or Subway, every dollar that goes into those businesses is ultimately helping them exploit and kill more animals. It would make more sense to pack vegan restaurants until there are lines around the block, because then, their non-vegan competition will want a piece of the action. I don’t enjoy going to non-vegan restaurants, and I’ve gotten more particular about it in my old age. Why would a vegan want to be around dead and exploited animals? Why do you want to take the chance of having a body part of a sentient being in your salad or pasta? Why do you want to trust a chef, who couldn’t care less about your ethical choices, to be careful not to cross-contaminate your dish with the secretions of an animal?”

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Tim, I think it's a personal choice. Some people will go to nonvegan chains for reasons other than where their money goes. They will go there to please friends and family, or because they need to meet someone there for work.

 

Lisa Viger:

So where do you go then?

 

Anna Zes:

its the majority rule, big chains won't change just cause some few clients are picky, so maybe we should boycott them?

 

Spela Suskovic:

Tim, I don't enjoy it either, And I don't go if it is not necessary.

 

Adam Little:

There's also a problem with the fact that 100% vegan chains don't exist everywhere.

 

Lisa Viger:

There aren't any vegan restaurants near me, so it's either get something vegan at a nonvegan place or don't go at all, or don't eat while I'm there, which is also an option.

 

Adam Little:

Right

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Or it's a matter of convenience. Personally, I'm not all that concerned with where a few cents of the profit from my 99 cent bean burrito from Taco Bell goes since I may be responsible for donating thousands of dollars to animal orgs and/or spending thousands or manhours handing out tens of thousands of vegan leaflets

 

Anna Zes:

boycott all restaurants offering meat even if they are smart enough to create 'vegan options' :-)

 

Anne Logan:

Gosh you guys are quick!  That friend has been wonderful. I've seen others who are very judgemental and others including vegetarians get their back up, from what I've seen it doesn't help to be that way AT Adam Little:L.

 

Anna Zes:

agree with Anne

 

Anne Logan:

Sorry guys, I just wanted to share that bit of info as I found it really helped me.

Thanks Anna :-)

 

vegendeb:

I’m even starting to shake before i go into a supermarket,

 

Adam Little:

Is it comparable to shop at a non-vegan grocery store that has vegan options to eating out in a similar matter?

 

Anna Zes:

judgemental? I've experienced vegans who wanted to kill me cause I am vegetarian (had bad luck I guess). But there's are sane vegans too out there:-)

 

Anne Logan:

Choices here are very limited, I live in a country town.  I don't eat out, nowhere to go that I've found yet.

 

Elaine Vigneault:
I'm not vegan because I care where my money goes. After all, I pay my taxes and that means that my money goes to war and other terrible things. I'm vegan to prevent animals from suffering or dying. That's it

 

Adam Little:

Exactlty

 

Dino Sarma:

Anne: would your answer change if you lived in Manhattan, where there are about 25+ exclusively vegan restaurants all up and down the city?

 

Elaine Vigneault:

I think the concept of veganism as a boycott is helpful for some people. I think that the idea that we can vote with our forks and our dollars is a good way to encourage people to choose compassionate vegan options.

 

Anna Zes:

wow Dino! 25..

 

Elaine Vigneault:

But I think that practically speaking the change we need witll not come from a boycott

 

Adam Little:

I agree

 

Jordan Wyatt:

I can give an interesting example, and contrast from Australasia

 

Adam Little:

That seems to be a misconception

 

Jordan Wyatt:

"Hellhound Hotdogs", an exclusively VEGAN hot dog cart in Australia

 

Dino Sarma:

Because it's still capitalism, right elaine?

 

Jordan Wyatt:

www.hellhoundhotdogs.com

 

Anne Logan:

Absolutely Dino!

 

Adam Little:

I was told recently that I'm really involved in social change if I don't vote. I disagree

 

Adam Little:

I'm not really*

 

Tim Gier:

Where do vegan restaurants buy their supplies of vegan food?

 

Jordan Wyatt:

most people buying the product will have NO idea its actually Vegan! Compared with Hell Pizza here in New Zealand, a NZ chain thats expanding into other countries, similar marketing, yet they are Non Vegan, and proud of it, with ads of baby lambs jumping about, and then they go off screen, you hear a scream and

"BABY LAMB RIBS, $5, at HELL"

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Dino, yes and no. I'm not necessarily against capitalism. But this form of it we've got - where government bails out failing  industries like animal agriculture - well that means that a boycott won't be effective

 

Anna Zes:

well put Elaine!

 

Jordan Wyatt:

they have a wonderful Vegan pizza though, I *love* that they list a VEGAN pizza, you just ask for "The Sinister please"

 

Dino Sarma:

Tim: For their veggies? From produce vendors, who also carry dairy and eggs. For their dry goods? From companies that carry vegan and meat products.

 

Jordan Wyatt:

what a dilemma, telling Vegans here in my city of 50,000, no Vegan restaurants, to go to Hell, perhaps the company most proud of being "Non Vegan", for the expertly made Vegan pizza

 

Anna Zes:

advocate and push for 'every city and town on earth to have its own vegan restaurant':-)

 

Tim Gier:

that's right Dino

which means that every dollar spent at a vegan restaurant supports a non-vegan supply chain

 

Spela Suskovic:
Tim, this is depressing.

 

Adam Little:

lol It's sadly reality...

 

Tim Gier:

so I will eat vegan food where I can find it, and let others worry about finding "pure vegan" restaurants.

 

Adam Little:

I agree

 

Anna Zes:

I miss that point, vegan restaurants support non-vegan restaurants, how is it again?

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Tim, are you suggesting that by eating at Loving Hut, I'd be supporting exploitation?

 

Tim Gier:

When someone does find one, I'd appreciate them letting me know where it is.

Yes, Carolyn, that is what I am saying. Loving Hut buys its food supplies from the same companies that sell "meat" to other restaurants.

 

Adam Little:

I will say that I feel more comfortable at a vegan restaurant, just because I can be "sure" that something foul wasn't accidently slipped in there...

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Adam - I agree and I love vegan restaurants. May they prosper and flourish!

 

Adam Little:

I was practically giggling when I first went to Loving Hut

 

Elaine Vigneault:

It's just that I will eat where I eat and sometimes that means I'll eat at nonvegan restaurants.

 

Spela Suskovic:

Thanks I didn't know that.

 

Adam Little:

Inadvertantly supporting it I suppose.

 

Tim Gier:

(as far as I know there is no Vegan Wholesale Food Distributer in the US)

 

Anna Zes:

ok now I got it

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I wonder if it would therefore be better to minimise the exploitation we participate in, by eating in vegan restaurants wherever possible then?

 

Anna Zes:

the middle man carries everything!

 

Anne Logan:

I have to log off guys, I have to be somewhere very soon.  I'm looking forward to reading the transcript later!  Have a great day everyone :-

 

Adam Little:

I would agree with that Carolyn

 

Allan Mercer:

Tim is right with his comment about chefs not caring about you and that goes for the staff too. Its too much trouble for them

 

Adam Little:

I'm saddened when I see empty vegan chains in the middle of the day

 

Dino Sarma:

Chefs may or may not care about you, but they sure as hell care about a lawsuit.

 

Anna Zes:

so, vegan shops too then, like vegan restaurants, are part of the evil interconnected meat supply?

 

Tim Gier::

yes

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Yes, but I think it's very important to participate in the least exploitation possible, which would, in my opinion, mean eating in vegan restaurants wherever possible

 

Dino Sarma:

See, we're going back to my line discussion. There are vegan ice creams (Soy Delicious) that are made on shared equipment. I'd still rather you bought that one than you buy the dairy stuff.

 

Adam Little:

I would say though that, in the long run, it is "better" to attend those that are attempting to reduce said adverse effects.

Yes Carolyn

 

Allan Mercer:

Went to a wedding and they arranged a main vegan meal for me. The waitress told me they would not give me the pumpkin soup because it had coconut milk in it !!!

 

Adam Little:

Huh lol

 

Dino Sarma:

They must've spent hours looking for the coconut's nipples, Allan

 

Adam Little:

Only explanation... xP

Anna Zes:

good that they cared so much though:-P

you are socially accepted as a vegan (diet outsider)

 

Dino Sarma:

Nope. But I'm gay, so there's more than one reason to hate on me. LOL

 

Adam Little:

People do seem to be more accommodating of a vegan "life-style" as time goes on.

Anna Zes:

aaahwww!

 

Adam Little:

I would say the same thing for atheism... they could care less about my veganism after I let that out...

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Carolyn - would you view people who actively seek out vegan options at nonvegan restaurants as people who are not vegan?

 

Allan Mercer:

The main thing that got me at this wedding was the looks that I got from others at the table that I was some sort of wierdo for not eating meat

 

Anna Zes:

i guessed so Allan, but they made this special plate for you so thats something I think

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Elaine, no. But I would hope that if there was a vegan restaurant nearby, they would choose to support that restaurant in preference to a nonvegan one

 

Emmy James:

I have a question, my raw vegan flatmate said that 50% of all sugar, including brown sugar, is processed with bone char. So even food labeled as vegan could still have sugar processed with bone char. What are your views on that?

 

Dino Sarma:

Correct, Emmy.

 

Jordan Wyatt:

Emmy, all New Zealand white sugar is processed by Chelsea, up in that Auckland place I've heard so much about, and it IS all Vegan. In other, less developed nations, yes, they DO use ground up, scorched BONES....

 

Barbara DeGrande:

You lucky NZers!

 

Jordan Wyatt:

rumour has it, Non Vegan Sugar Nations also feature "convenient underbridge apartments with a view!"

 

Emmy James:

Cool, thanks for that info Jordan! I feel so much better now :-D

 

Carolyn Bailey:

All sugar in Australia and NZ is vegan, to the best of my knowledge.

 

Adam Little:

No doubt...

 

Anna Zes:

locally grown food may be the more moral option in the end me thinks

 

Jordan Wyatt:

+1 for Australasia, hip hip hooray!

 

Lisa Viger:

locally grown veganic

 

Emmy James:

Wow, we are lucky here in NZ!

 

Jordan Wyatt:

It comes into matters such as Oreo cookies, where the American versions would be Vegan (?) if not for the Non Vegan sugar used, but in NZ, we have the Chinese made (!) version, which apparently uses Vegan Sugar

 

Lisa Viger:

vegan sugar but child labor

 

Jordan Wyatt:

as the great Dr Yates mentions

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Here is an article about sugar and bone char in the US http://www.vrg.org/journal/vj2007issue4/2007_issue4_sugar.php

 

Carolyn Bailey:

Yeah, Oreos are vegan here too, but I see Lisa's point

 

Jordan Wyatt:

its often easier to avoid NONHUMAN animal exploitation than HUMAN animal exploitation

 

Anna Zes:

Lisa, we  discussed above also for 'child labored' tomatoes and soya..

 

Lisa Viger:

i just shop in the produce aisle ... makes thing simple

 

Anna Zes:

agree with Jordan (sad aint it?)

 

Dino Sarma:

Except with the goddamned tomatoes Lisa

 

Lisa Viger:

except for the tomatoes

Dino Sarma:

Stupid exploitative people. This is what happens when you let capitalism run amok. :-(

 

Anna Zes:

i think if we buy local produce we avoid both human and non human animal exploitation.

Barbara DeGrande:

We cannot know all the implications of our consumer choices. Consume less is always good.

Spela Suskovic:

Do you agree that products that involve human exploitation are not vegan?

 

Lisa Viger:

i grow a lot of our own, so i don't buy tomatoes

 

Dino Sarma:

I certainly would agree, Spela.

 

Anna Zes:

good question Spela!

 

Adam Little:

Absolutely, I would agree Barbara

 

Elaine Vigneault:

We can actively seek out fair trade options.

 

Anna Zes:

yep

 

Dino Sarma:

To me, veganism is the ideal that all exploitation is wrong.

 

Jordan Wyatt:

it generally is sad when people agree with me, yes

 

Anna Zes:

humans are animals too (although some vegan 'experts' are misanthropes)

 

Jordan Wyatt:

to be devils advocate, as a godless Atheist, is it good for Vegan to extended beyond "no animal products" into labour issues?

 

Sky:

:-)

 

Lisa Viger:

I think it is Jordan ... it's all connected.

 

Jordan Wyatt:

I worry about issues of economy etc Lisa, "you cant be Vegan unless you are an Anarchist..." etc

 

Adam Little:

That is a concern

 

Dino Sarma:

But see, the thing about it is that at the end of the day, you need to be able to live your life.

 

Jordan Wyatt:

I saw a Vegan yesterday who was a proud Republican, while thats CERTAINLY unusual for me, I guess theres no reason why she couldnt be Vegan!

 

Elaine Vigneault:

JOrdan, I believe it is good to do so, but not necessary in order to label oneself vegan

 

Dino Sarma:

you do what you can, when you're good and ready for it.

 

Jordan Wyatt:

I would probably agree Elaine

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Here is a group that works with these issues: http://www.foodispower.org/

Barbara DeGrande:

Dino, exactly!

 

Jordan Wyatt:

FEP

Carolyn Bailey:

Jordan, why would anyone suggest that a Republican couldn't be vegan?

 

Jordan Wyatt:

take a look at their policies Carolyn, although I know many right leaning people who are Vegan :-)

 

Carolyn Bailey:

I am a right leaning person, and I don't have any problem with my veganism

 

Adam Little:
What is "right leaning" anyway?

 

Jordan Wyatt:

a topic for a political chat site Adam :-)

 

Sky:

different to wrong leaning

 

Anna Zes:

lol

 

Adam Little:

It seems to mean different things to different people.  The same thing for left leaning

Dino Sarma:

Put it this way: I'm not going to tell a newly minted vegan to avoid the goddamned tomatoes, because he'll likely throw up his hands in frustration, burn out, and end up doing /nothing/ because he can't do everything. It's always important to recall: Don't do nothing because you can't do everything.

 

Adam Little:

Good point Dino

 

Anna Zes:

there's the argument around that poor people can be vegan by buying frozen veges and fruits instead of locally expensive produce. But that supports human slavery;/

 

Dino Sarma:

Say what you will, but my rent's about $1,300 a month, before electric and all the rest. I make about $1,200 a month.

 

Adam Little:

It can become quite over-whelming

 

Elaine Vigneault:

We can do the most for animals, the planet, and other humans by avoiding animal products. Then if we want to do more, we should buy organic and fair trade.

 

Dino Sarma:

Anyone who tells me I'm not vegan, because I'm not shopping at organic freerange local places can go fuck himself. As in, half my paycheque has to go to pay my rent, because that's the cost of living.

 

Elaine Vigneault:

If we want to do more, we can buy local and grow our own food. But maybe at that point it makes more sense to focus on advocacy rather than on our individual habits because more people buying vegan is better than one vegan growing his or her own food

 

Dino Sarma:

It'd be /nice/ to do all organic and the rest, but I'm not there financially.

 

Adam Little:

I will say that I don't care if something can be labeled as liberal or conservative... I care if it's resonable.

 

Adam Little:

Hence veganism and the personhood of animals

 

Anna Zes:

organic accordingt o research is only saving you from pesticides, the vitamins are there in non-organic food as well

 

Dino Sarma:

True, Anna. I'm not a huge fan of Monsanto though. They're horrible people.

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Dino, I don't buy all organic either. But I do seek out some organic things. For example, I never by coffee that isn't both organic and fair trade. And I almost always buy bananas that are both.

 

Sky:

Not a huge fan - UNDERstatement!

 

Dino Sarma:

Again, if I tried to be "perfect", or "pure", then I'd lose my patience and give it all up.

We've all got our lines, rigt?

 

Adam Little:

Focusing on all of these dynamics though... I will say that at least the average person recognizes the problems with classism, sexism, and racism.  I want to people to actually acknowledge speciesism!  I haven't seen this in my view

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Anna- that's why organic is more of an issue for the workers than the consumers. They are exposed to much more pesticide!

It's also about the environment

 

vegendeb:

Dino you're doing the right thing you have too, i agree

 

Adam Little:

There can't be much good in being neurotic.

 

Dino Sarma:

How do y'all feel about those folks on WIC, where large parts of their food is animal food, and they can't afford anything else?

 

Adam Little:

It is more than logical to have less suffering than the maximum amount.

 

Dino Sarma:

(WIC = Women, infants, and children; it's set up by the dept of agriculture to feed pregnant and nursing women.)

 

Elaine Vigneault:

WIC is getting better

In my state, you can get soy formula and soy milk with a doctor's note

 

Adam Little:

Seems to go into the issue of farming subsidies.

 

Elaine Vigneault:

And you can use food stamps at farmers markets too

 

Dino Sarma:

Thank goodness. It was awful when my sister-in-law was on it. She was vegetarian (still is), so would trade the animal products for vegetables with the neighbours.

Where they routinely charge double, if not more, than the supermarkets, Elaine.

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Yeah, it's better now. Not perfect, but better.

 

Lisa Viger:

Farmer's markets here take food stamps. So do some seed catalogs.

 

Adam Little:

That's great!

 

Dino Sarma:

Lisa: Seed catalogs taking food stamps is AWESOME!

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Yeah, farmers markets can be more expensive in some places, but in other places they're cheaper or similarly priced. Some foods are only available at farmers markets though, so that's helpful for some people

 

Lisa Viger:

There are also places who give seeds to people like us who grow for food pantries

 

Anna Zes:

sorry late remark: i agree with Elaine on pesticide's effects  to general health, both human and animal and other issues (pesticide use is in itself a huge discussion I guess)

 

Elaine Vigneault:

But to the general question - I think that people's responsibilities to consume responsibly are related to their education, experience, income, and so forth. Someone with fewer resources and less education isn't as responsible for animal cruelty as

someone who not only has the capacity to consume responsiby but who is also considered a change-maker to that end, celebrities should all be vegan :-)

 

Adam Little:

That's a fair point.

 

Dino Sarma:

Like Al Gore, Elaine?

 

Elaine Vigneault:

especially

 

Lisa Viger:

yep

 

Dino Sarma:

So in that thinking!

 

Anna Zes:

Many of them are I think, but thre's little impact on 'average Joe' still, more of them must ADVOCATE it,maybe the're vegans for health reasons only.

 

Dino Sarma:

Those who are making an effort to be vegan need to be encouraged.

 

Anna Zes:

agree Dino

 

Dino Sarma:

And nitpicking on their fucking sugar isn't maybe the best way to encourage them, right?

 

Anna Zes:

cause it's hard and you see from this chat, HOW hard it is, on all levels, so we should encourage each other

 

Dino Sarma:

Or cussing them out for shopping for their soymilk at Walmart. ETC ETC

 

Lisa Viger:

Exactly, Dino.

 

Anna Zes:

agree, again, Dino (on sugar)

 

Dino Sarma:

In fact, it seems like we should be spreading the "vegan" message as one of practicality.

 

Adam Little:

Absolutely

 

Lisa Viger:

I do think we have to be aware and conscious consumers in all areas, though.

 

vegendeb:

your right

 

Dino Sarma:

You avoid the obvious animal product,s and hte rest will follow in time.

 

Anna Zes:

freaky puritan vegans sound like christian vegans ;/

sorry, christian puritans I mean, lol

 

Dino Sarma:

(With no offense intended towards any Christian vegans.)

 

Anna Zes:

must go sleeping obviously, laters! thanks for the chat

nite!

 

Lisa Viger:

night Anna! Check out the recipes and if you need any help, ask!

 

Dino Sarma:

Byeee Anna!

 

Elaine Vigneault:

I'm excited to see soymilk in walmart! Do you know how often I hear people say they can't go vegan because they don't know where to buy vegan foods? Well it's great to just ask where they shop and tell them, Yup, they have soymilk and tofu :-)

 

Adam Little:

Good night nice talking to you!

 

Dino Sarma:

Same here, Elaine. It's a little disconcerting to see Walmart carrying organics though. Just saying.

 

Sky:

night!!!!

 

Lisa Viger:

And LOTS of people shop at Walmart.

 

Dino Sarma:

They do. :-( It's sad.

 

Elaine Vigneault:

Why is that disconcerting? Would you rather walmart be more evil so at least they're not hypocritical?

 

Dino Sarma:

Elaine: Because their "organics" come from China. XD

 

Tim Gier::

May I make a quick announcement??

 

On Tuesday, we're hosting another Members' Chat, this time in celebration and recognition of World Vegan Day!!! We'd like our members to share the stories of the past year, their successes and challenges, as well as tell us about their plans for the coming year.

 

Dino Sarma:

Even if said plans are like "Eat more fried food. Nobody ever got to their deathbed and said, 'I wish I didn't have that samosa.'"?

 

vegendeb:

Tim sounds like that will be an interesting talk then on Tuesday

 

Tim Gier:

We'll be starting formally at 6pm US Eastern time, which is the same time we always start chats, but we hope to see people here all day long!!

 

Adam Little:

I'll be sure to stop by... :-)

 

Carolyn Bailey:

To hear more from Dino Sarma, check him out here: www.altveg.blogspot.com/  I think it's a great site!

 

 

ARZone exists to promote rational discussion about our relations with other animals and about issues within the animal advocacy movement. Please continue the debate after “chats” by starting a forum discussion or making a point under a transcript.

 

 

[Carolyn Bailey]

Thanks, Billy!

Dino has some really cool recipes in ARZone too. Easy basic ones that are REALLY nice! :)

 

[Billy L]

sorry, I can't stop :)

http://redapes.org/orangutan-palm-oil-factoids-list-great-start

[Billy L]

UK - http://fatgayvegan.com/

[Billy L]

Another recent discovery: http://martysnycveggiereview.blogspot.com/

[Billy L]

More of these member chats please !!! :) Wish I wasn't sleeping for work when this one happened, so thanks for transcribing it!

There are so many issues raised in this one, that a quick list to recap and continue might be a good starting point.

I like most the issue of making veganism practical and accessible to the average Jane. I want to tell people how easy it is, *not* because I shop at unique grocery stores, or spend all my time geeking out about microscopic ingredients, but it's "easy" because I can easily obtain some basic ingredients that are available in most any produce aisle, and it can be done on almost *any* budget (time availability is another variable that I struggle with - maybe I should get off the damn computer and cook more though). I point to these two often, but I don't think it can be said enough:

Vegan For $3.33 A Day - http://melomeals.blogspot.com/

and of course the newly discovered (thanks to the Zone) www.altveg.blogspot.com/ by Dino Sarma.

But that's not all! If you are fortunate enough to have a couple extra pennies to spend, and are a bit more unconventional in your eating habits, there is Lisa Viger's - Raw On $10 A Day (Or Less!) rawon10.blogspot.com/

There's obviously much more to it than diet, as can be seen from the discussion, but if I'm going to present veganism to the everyday people I'm around in the small agricultural community where I live out in Central California, it has to be easily adoptable. Philosophy, morality, ethics, social justice, politics, sociology, economics, etc. are light years away from most of the real conversations I have.

Those blogs make it real and possible for the millions, and that's who we all want to convince.