Animal Rights Zone

Fighting for animal liberation and an end to speciesism

Transcript of Jordan Wyatt's Guest Chat

Transcript of Jordan Wyatt's ARZone Guest Chat

22 January 2011 at:

2pm US Pacific

5pm US Eastern

10pm UK Time and:

23 January 2011 at:

8am Australian Eastern Standard Time

11am New Zealand Time


Carolyn Bailey:

ARZone would like to welcome Jordan Wyatt as our guest today. Jordan is a New Zealand Animal Rights activist who specializes in Chicken Friend-ery. He has been a vastly outspoken activist for about the last couple of years.


Jordan attained his HsG (High School Graduation) from Verdon College (2000-2005) as well as his PIsP (Primary/Intermediate School pass) from St Josephs (lets see, when did I start primary school… *counts backwards on fingers and toes* "MUUUUUUM? WHEN DID I START SCHOOOOOOOOOOOOL?" 1992-1999), not to mention the time he came first in a Math test by copying his smart friend Wiriya  on all but one question, the hardest, took a stab at it, came up with a completely wrong (but imaginative) answer, and was awarded the top place based on the "miraculous" improvement from near bottom of the class,  kinda the top in the span of a week. His proudest achievement, he still has the certificate to this day.


Jordan has written a great body of work, mostly in TextEdit and Blogger, the majority made it past his editor, himself.  Jordan created a revolutionary new suffix for the realm of Animal Rights activists, of adding "-friend" to the end of common animal names to present the affection felt from human to nonhuman animal. He is quite litigious about this, and has tried, and so far failed to sue the pants off any who DARE use it without handing over the proverbial 500 grams of Tofu.


Founding the Invercargill Vegan Society in 2010, making sure to establish operations before 2011 (to appear a whole year older), "Dictator for life" Wyatt aims to promote Veganism as easy, and a moral obligation, "one person at a time", literally, having a single member. Bashing all who disagree with his theories of "how the world works", from insight gained as an unskilled woodworker, Jordan concocted a brilliant scheme of a Vegan world, based on everyone moving to New Zealand, and watching as the other countries tear themselves apart. He fully expects the world to go Vegan in an explosion of purple smoke, or alternatively implode as the quartz crystal first pulses for 2012.


Jordan maintains a blog site at:


Would you please join with me in welcoming Jordan to ARZone today.


Welcome, Jordan!


Tim Gier

Hi Jordan!


Surinder Sekhon

Welcome, Jordan!


Ben Hornby

hi Jordan





Mangus O’Shales



Lisa Viger

Hi Jordan! :-)



Hi Jordan! :-)


Jordan Wyatt

Hi Carolyn, Hi  Surinder, Ben, Will, Mangus! and everyone else!


Hi Lisa


Brooke Cameron

Thanks for being here, Jordan!








Jordan Wyatt

its a wonderful morning here, hi Brooke, Sky, Erin... in New Zealand :-) I'm glad to be here talking with you all sitting here in my Team Vegan shirt


Carolyn Bailey

Jordan has indicated that he’d like today’s chat to be casual and friendly, and will be responding to many questions spontaneously. Please feel free to let one of the admins know if you’d like to pose a question to Jordan.


Roger Yates



Jordan Wyatt

not at all, Dr Yates


Roger Yates 



Jordan Wyatt

"Doctator", a bit like "Gover-nator"


Carolyn Bailey

I’d now like to ask Tim Gier to ask Jordan his first question, the floor is yours, Tim.


Roger Yates

You'll be back


Tim Gier

Hi Jordan, and welcome to ARZone! How long does it take you to research and write a script for one of your podcasts?  Do you record them in one take?  Please tell us about the process and why you enjoy doing them.


Jordan Wyatt

Hi Tim!  Thank you all for inviting me to ARZone!  As well as that excellent podcast, On Human-Nonhuman Relations that "takes the cake", Dr Yates really knows how to MAKE one too! 


Better one "Dictator" in the kitchen, (or Vegan Society) rather than a "democratic" (or republi-cratic-an) three headed chimera "spoiling the broth"( ) Thank Science for the 3AM "Ireland (Europa) to Invercargill (New Zealand)" Concorde, gee Tim, does our Mach 2 mass transport make you jealous of those slav…I mean "colonies" who were good little boys and didn't put up a fight against Mum?  or would that be "Mom"? :-) 

Air New Zealand (as you all know, our national airline, owned "76.07%" by our gov', ,SOCIALISM!!!!111!!!!) has a fleet of All Black 'cordes ( Jeremy Clarkson's book "I Know You Got Soul" ( ) mentions the jealous US (who cant seem to handle high speed trains or the metric system, much less ~2K kph @ 18KM altitude jets) doing all possible to ban "our" glorious Concorde, "because that much Awesome roaring out of Rolls Royce engines might knock over cows on the land far, far, far below!"  (


Well then, as soon as we rid the world of Animal Agriculture, within 8 years or so  then you'll be able to enjoy Dr Yate's World Famous Mint Chocolate Cake via Concorde too!  Ireland (Europa) to Inverness! (the best named iCity in Florida ) In the meantime, if you've got 20 odd hours of life to waste, you're most welcome to take one of those "Boring" 's over to visit :-) 


Well, requiring a Concorde flight to get back to your question, how long does it take to make a podcast episode?  Depends on how often your Tourette's flares up,  as to how BOOGERS! often you'll have to do another URINE! take of a partTICular line……. KNICKERS!


With my show, (I prefer "show" to saying "podcast" all the time, we don't say we have a "tele-visual broadcast over the air in High-Def-ular resolution ScreenWide-tastic!, the medium doesn't matter, its a presentation,  a Showing Up to record as you feel, for whoever feels like listening), I write a "script", in case you havnt realized by now, IDIOT!  , whoops, sorry, I've got 'rettes remember,  I'm easily distracted (noooo, you don't say!), and planning each episode helps me stay within tolerable levels of "always mad" people who listen :-)  I take down (violent rhetoric after the latest shooting?), jot down notes while I work, fixing furniture, imagine me down here, at the bottom of the world, cutting wood to spec with a 12 "inch"  Table saw blade rotating damn fast, when my barely-audible-over-the-drone iPod will give me a fantastic clip-able moment, I'll leap over, tear off a piece of "paper",  about the only time I touch the damn stuff as a 23 year old, and scrawl out, for example, *looks at walls, covered in thousands of flapping pieces, each secured to the wall by a "4 inch" nail….  " book 3 HP chap. 19, 23m 10s "emotions less complicated as a dog"


Heres a little sneak preview of a future episode, about the language of the Harry Potter childrens books, AKA I was listening to torrented audiobooks of Harry Potter (wheres the delete button?) and heard interesting things, like this one, about how a Dogs emotions are "less complicated", and thus an "anamagi" was able to survive incarceration with "dementors", who normally rob you of all your happy thoughts!  Oh no! :-)  Plenty of other examples in the books, *looks at one entire wall covered in Harry Potter related future clips that will probably never be included on my show*, of people upset by the killing of one "special" Animal, one given an individual name,  while the characters are wearing "dragonhide", as they chop up other animals, before making "potions" the next day that require small animals, or exotic animal "parts" to be thrown in.  In short, to finish off this abomination of an answer, I'd say each episode takes as long as I need,


Concord-ular ramblings and Harry Pot-ulism aside!  Perhaps a few hours to plan, and recording, hmm, a 40 minute episode probably takes me about an hour in total, to roughly in a half arsed (can I say arsed?  Is "ass" better?) attempt to get all the clips at a regular volume.  I never succeed!  But people keep tolerating my production.  Uploading time, and posting to the blog,  to the podcast feed would take 10 minutes or so, probably longer, it runs in the background after I've collapsed, exhausted, to gaze at my walls of flapping, nailed on and ripped paper.  Thank you for the opportunity to ramble on the first question Tim! :^)


Carolyn Bailey

Thanks, Jordan! Barbara DeGrande has a question for you next but seems to be running late, so I'll ask for her:


I am a subscriber to your chicken friend videos and have always wondered how you initially became a chicken rescuer and how you learned to care for them?


Jordan Wyatt

Hi Barbara! (via Carolyn) Thank you for your question, and that wonderful show you have, Veganacious 


Like all ARZone featured guests, I live with my father, in a lonely shack on a wind swept moor.  I pay my own way, and enjoy looking after my Chicken Friends.  They are , by law, "his property", probably bought from a "Farm" somewhere, in the fantasy that they would obediently patrol the back section, for the end result of the Hens  "menstruation" to end up in his frying pan. 


I wouldn't want to leave them here, with a Non Vegan.  "Somehow", their eggs always "disappear", "Gee Father, they must not be in the laying mood, this lifetime!" 


Their eggs are given back to them, they look forward to the breaking, they are *their* eggs after all.  Heres a video of them eating the broken eggs, similar to on a Sanctuary, I link to the episode of The Vegan News with Adam Kochanowicz visiting Peaceful Prairie sanctuary in the videos description


Its hard to pick their favourite food, they enjoy just about anything, really, they'd happily be capable of living off plants in the garden, and water, although they would eat off my plate if allowed, here Mr Rooster discovers Falafel, which he tries  They are not permeant babies, attached to me with an umbilical cord, Chickens are fully capable of living independently of Humans, as they have for the vast majority of their existence on this planet! :-) 


I should explain, I say "Chicken Friend" to be clear to others that they are my *friends*, who happen to be Chickens, I don't like saying they are a "pet", or a "companion", they are their own sentient beings, I want nothing to do with "owning" or "controlling" them.  If I wanted a companion, I'd invent one  In the same sense as if a 20 hour "Boring"-ing "jet" (if you can call something puttering along at under 2000 kilometres an hour a jet)  lagged Tim Gier were to show up in my backyard, they are all most welcome to stay with me.


Initially, I was always afraid some ALF "direct action" fellow would show up in the middle of the night,  smash every window in the shack (the two previously unsmashed), spray paint "Die Animal abuZingg scuuuuuuM!!!" over my lovely nailed note covered walls, and take my Chicken Friends away,  to produce eggs "to share with them", while they stopped by the local, Southernmost in the world Burger King, to celebrate with a lovely Breast-Milkshake:


So far, I havnt been assaulted for having Chicken Friends. Those no good Vegetarians might be afraid of my "Vegan Powers" you for your show Barbara, and your question :-) 


Roger Yates

Thanks Jordan


Brooke Cameron

Hi, Jordan! New Zealand, like Australia, is a country heavily dependent on animal agriculture. Do you feel NZ fails in comparison to other countries due to this, in regards to animal rights, or do you feel, from a rights based perspective, the animal rights movement isn’t very well developed anywhere?


Jordan Wyatt

Hi Brooke!  I agree with your second approach, that NOWHERE in the world has a well developed "movement" (not fond of saying The M Word, makes me think of Bowels…much like how my "Culture" usually starts with "Streptococcus"), although I certainly enjoy portray city of 50,000 as having "a thriving Vegan Society", with her ONE Member. In your face "New Zealand Vegan Society" and "Auckland Abolitionist Vegan Association! Thank you for your question Brooke :-)


As with all people who haven’t been included yet, if you are an Abolitionist Vegan, I'd love to have an opening "Bumper" intro from you! 


The more people from around the world mentioning their own sites, OR Twitter accounts, the better!  Its great to stay in touch with Vegans from around the world :-) 


Carolyn Bailey

Thanks, Jordan!


Tim Gier would like to ask another question now. Thanks, Tim


Tim Gier

Wikipedia, the one true source of all human knowledge, has a list of titles which dictators have adopted over the years.  My favorites are Conducător (Leader) and   El Jefe (The Chief).  How do you prefer to be referred to & must we kiss your ring?


Jordan Wyatt

Hi Tim!  You are indeed right that Wikipedia is the mythical "Tree of Knowledge" from which we stole an Apple, back in the day.  Perhaps the only more legit resource is a " (something) " account :-) Having only one member (…and I wonder why…no, seriously, why?  Don't people want to be ruled over these days?), I've yet to waterboard - "enhanced interrogate" - serfs into singing my praises.  One day!  Until then, "Dictator for Life" of my "Invercargill Vegan Society", and "Sir Jordan W. Wyatt" will be fine on my CV and crappy business cards :-




Must I also flaunt my "High School Graduated" status?Now on the other hand, if *you* are needing a fancy title,  perhaps in an attempt to convince your nation to join the prestigious Wikipedia page for " Countries Who Got The Supersonic Mass Transport ", where 100 passengers counts as "mass" (HEY!  Thats more than a bus!  And 100 is REALLY big, when your nation only has 4 Million!), then I'd personally vouch for " El Presidenté " What say you, now Equal Ranked "El Presidenté" Gier? Thank you for the opportunity to display Simpsons Trivia :-)


Tim Gier

Thanks Jordan!  Roger Yates has the next question, Roger, please go ahead!


Roger Yates

Your Excellency and Dictator 4 Life (bow and scrape),I remember you were rather angry with animal advocate Erik Marcus recently – and suggested that he changes his website address to “ or “” What makes a peace-loving dictator 4 life so furious?


Jordan Wyatt:

Dr Yates, with a show like yours, You Bow To No-one</Return of the King trivia> Sorry about the "scraped" knee too, such rough, volcanic stone in this area.


Hey guys, did you know The Lord of The Rings movies were filmed in my country?  Come to New Zealand!!!!  We're not desperate for tourists, or anything like that!  *strained smile and frantic nodding of head*  I don't think its a great idea to constantly bash other activists, even those whose Concorde is soundly (or even faster than soundly)  flying In The Wrong Direction, as fast as those mighty engines can take it. 


Hey Erik, you got to put The-Metaphorical-Car-That-Is-Vegans-Promoting-Happy-Meat in H!  Or perhaps its Americas greatest car (spelt "S-U-V" in Americano), the "Canyonero", smelling of "Happy Meat" Steak and not very well thought out!  With promotion of "regulating animal abuse", no wonder Deer will be "smacked", "goes reaaaaal slow with the hammer down…the country fried truck endorsed by a clown!"I don't think paying Celebrities to endorse your campaign is very effective, just watch the "ad" :) Mr Marcus, owner of "Vegan Dot Com" I'm not a fan of saying the actual name... ugh  just imagine, a nonvegan visiting "vegan dot com" for the first, and possibly last time they investigate Veganism Mr Marcus, owner of "Vegan Dot Com"  "this Animal Agriculture gig don't work without no subsidies!  Lets focus on getting rid of them, rather than promoting Veganism!" *correction*

 and "Veganism is impossible!  But we're ETHICALLY OBLIGATED to make sure we kill animals, before we throw them in a hole!  Thats *the least* that they deserve, to be killed with 50 cent injections!"

 They needed a sound, nonviolent bum kicking.  You know when the teacher constantly says, "now Jordan, theres no such thing as stupid questions, you're just taking the scenic road when it comes to learning" *forced smile* *thinks to herself "why did I waste all those years in teachers college"?*  Well Ms Crawford was wrong, there *are* stupid questions, if you can call a stupid Vegan Dot Com blog post a stupid "question", which I have, rather stupidly. I mean, this one man Vegan Society just needed to look around his own spacious - and deserted -  meeting hall to realise those posts were utterly wrong. 


My own Glorious Island Nation of New Zealand firmly shows the error of the "lets kill animals this way!" Vegan Dot Com's postings:  New Zealand "farming" is unsubsidized, although we don't actually use a ZED in "unsubsidised", See, we actually believe in that "free market" malarky, funny that!  We're held up as a global standard for "farming", first "Sheep Farming", and now "Dairy". We are now most known for "Dairy", killing Sheep became very unprofitable a decade or two back, there was an industry in "sheep to dairy conversions". A nearby "town" (of under 600 people…) boasts "The Worlds Largest Milk Powder Dryer", New Zealand "Dairy" farmers are kicking butt in this free market, like an Australian Prime Minister (think El Presidenté, Tim) disciplining a small boy for racking up a large phone bill , no Mr 'Bama giving out billions to crappy car makers of "Canyonero's" here.


I took a video of the "Dairy" plant recently, whoever knew Milk, like Money, grew on trees?:

 Subsidies vs No Subsides are NOT the issue, they are a crazy distraction, a matter of throwing… "farming waste" at the wall and hoping it sticks.  "uh, uh, maybe its worse for your health to eat "meat"?, "maybe you should just eat less, and whenever possible, only the Happy variety?" Sorry Mr Marcus, but when you cover a wall in nailed on hunks of paper, you can just rip out handfuls at a time, after uncovering another layer, you'll have a "pristine" wall again, showing a "beautiful" (totally not "deranged") mind!  And this "radical" and "extreme" mind promotes Veganism  :-)


Vegans should speak clearly for *Veganism* as the *least* other animals deserve. As for going on about how GREEDY those foreign "Factory farmers" (actual quote) must be, not to spend around 50 cents (presumably Americano, not New Zealand Paso cents) to kill each Chicken prior to throwing him or her in The Hole…and declaring mankind (Kind Women always get off…) "ethically obligated" (actual quote) to do this… The thought of a Vegan Dot Com that might as well be fund raising money from Amazon purchase percentages to send "50 cent killing drugs" to Farmers is crazy.  And with no "Second Amendment"  to A Document That Can Never, Ever Be Changed, the Invercargill Vegan Society is unable to hold a bake sale for a constitutionally granted Weapon of Mass Outrage, to be fired off Australia's direction.


Like a Mr Rooster who's found Falafel, I madly struck out at Vegan Dot Com, beak snapping open and shut, and emitting a chirping sort of noise. In future, I'd like to keep my indignation trapped deep down inside, where it can fester harmlessly as a mental illness -  hey, is that a spot with only three layers of nailed on notes for future clips? Thank you for your question, Dr Yates, I see you haven’t mentioned your Primary or High School graduation status, did you pass those too? If not, good luck!  As an honorary member of the Invercargill Vegan Society, I'll see if I can pull some strings, and grant you an honorary graduation from two of our local schools :-)


Carolyn Bailey

Thanks for that, Jordan! Barbara DeGrande has another question, which Roger will ask for her. Thanks, Roger


Roger Yates

Like you, I live in an area of intensive animal commodification and, like you, live with or near non-vegan family members. How do you maintain your sense of humor and what encourages you to keep going?


Jordan Wyatt

"Meds" for the former, Methamphetamine for the latter.  Its street name here is " P ".  As Dr Yates, master of the NZ television trivia will realise, the "Bro Town" show called it "upside down b" Thank you for your question Barbara!


Just kidding. Whenever I feel sad, I see what other Animal Rights activists (a broad term, having a blogspot account and a one person Vegan Society seem to be the barrier to entry) are doing around the world, and that makes me feel fantastic! We *are* making a difference, especially those ones who, you know, actually leave the note covered house and talk with non Vegans on the streets.  I personally try to talk to people each and every day about Veganism, sometimes ringing up a Pizza delivery number, "yeah, so you want the 56 Billion land animals not killed, hold the non Vegan cheese?  Should be delivered in the next thirty minutes, or its free!" *mumbles under her breath damn prank call *mumble*


I wouldn't be able to count the number of people I've "tweeted" on Twitter, by searching for  " Vegan " and commenting positively, and politely, on negative messages. Non Vegans talking about " elitist Vegans", or better yet, people thinking to themselves, and their five followers about how "I'd like to be Vegan but its so hard …?", I jump in there, like a Rooster whose found Falafel, and offer advice, from my favourite websites, my favourite shows, my favourite colours, and my favourite names for an adopted child.


People are generally very thankful!  It’s easy to promote Veganism, and that makes me feel great, to know I'm doing my bit, as much as anyone else here, who needs large Welfare groups, promoting "Free Range", and asking for a monthly donation?  Huh, Yeah, Good Dog Y'all, What Arrrrrre They Good For? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!  Say it again! (we get the point Jordan, please don't repeat yourself, Editor) 


Other times when I might feel sad, I spend more times with the Animals I *can* help, like my Chicken Friends. Here is the last video I have of Ms Hen alive, she was killed less than a day after I recorded this video.  Every moment is precious.  I'd like this video of my Hen Friend sleeping in the sunbeam, casually looking at me when she's disturbed by a strange noise to reach more people. 


She, Chickens, Birds all have such great trust in others, they have friends, a community, just as we do. Heck, *we* probably copied *them*! She only opened her eye closest to me, to see what I was doing, if I was ok, she figured she was too, that I'd look out for her as she slept. I loved her very much, she was as wonderful a friend as anyone could ask for. 

Thank you for your question Barbara!


Tim Gier

Thanks again Jordan. Ben Hornby is up with the next question. Ben, you're up!


Ben Hornby

Thanks, Tim. Hi Jordan, and thanks for doing this chat.  Are the nonhuman animals in New Zealand SAFE?


Jordan Wyatt

Hi Ben!  Are other animals well represented by our Welfare promoting "Animal Rights" group SAFE? "The Largest Animal Rights group in New Zealand", hardly ok, so at 1 whole member (at least our membership's not measured in fractions or a percent less than 100!) it sure isn't the Invercargill Vegan Society!  I'd vouch for The Auckland Abolitionist Vegan Association, with at least two members, or, perhaps Sam Tucker and Emmy James have also concocted a marvellous name to hide behind when ringing up radio stations, or sending in (emails) to local newspapers? 


I don't think anyone is safe until others speak out for them fully, I don't think you count as "safe" when "Animal Rights" groups spend millions asking consumers not to buy "cruel pork", never really mentioning "and "Free Range" is meaningless and no  "WE DID IT! THANK YOU! SAFE wishes to thank everyone who has written letters, sent submissions or lobbied their politician in support of a ban on sow stalls. It is also fair to say it would not have been possible without the help of comedian Mike King.  Thanks Mike!"

 When Mike King is a New Zealand C-lebrity (not A Grade) who most featured on the most important current affairs show about "factory farming" of "pork", the longest segment by far, which ended with "I'm still gonna eat "pork", I love "Pork"!  Free Ran When Mike King is a New Zealand C-lebrity (not A Grade) who most featured on the most important current affairs show about "factory farming" of "pork", the longest segment by far, which ended with "I'm still gonna eat "pork", I love "Pork"!  Free Ran Free Range is great!", and had footage of him cooking and eating the flesh of these Pigs. SAFE saw this footage before it were aired, and while it was not edited or produced by them, but the news show, they never directly spoke out against it. "when our spokesperson, without whom "it would not have been possible" promotes eating "free range", we at SAFE, an Animal Rights group do NOT agree, as of now, King is lined up for government money, we sure as heck dont want someone pimping the killing of animals I find such campaigns have made the work of those promoting *Veganism* so much the harder, when people are now granted a "Get out of Guilt free card" of "But I onnnnnnly buy Freeeee Raaaaaaaange Daaaaaaarling!"When a strange looking' guy, perhaps in overalls with badges exclaiming "I'm Vegan and I love you!"

shows up saying "The Animal People On Telly" are wrong…woah, well OBVIOUSLY he must be some RADICAL, EXTREME, NUTJOB, not to be taken seriously! With the internet however, anyone, and everyone can have a voice.  Its not a matter of the large Animal "Rights" groups being " The Decider" in who gets to throw in their 2 US Cents (worth about …lets say 2.25 NZ Cents) into public opinion, no, theres plenty of room for, introducing another phony accolade for myself, "The Diviser!" to step in, fingers flying across the USB keyboard, microphone levels being blown out to talk with anyone who'll put up with him! Thank you for your question Ben!  I'd also like an intro "bumper" from you, and anyone else who has yet escaped unharassed :-)


Carolyn Bailey:

Thanks again Jordan, Randy Sandberg has a question for you next, which Roger Yates will ask on his behalf. Thanks, Rog.


Roger Yates

How does atheism play a part in your veganism? Which idea came first?


Jordan Wyatt

Hello Randy! (via Roger) I was an Atheist, agreeing with the natural world and not believing in the "supernatural" before I was Vegan.  I think its useful for me to link the two when talking to Non Vegans, to make others think about how "hey, we're no different, they're no less, no more than us", that Whales and Dolphins are not "magic", that Chickens are, in fact, the most highly evolved form of life,  how else could we explain how pretty their feathers are?:-)


I think the mainstream (at least in my area) beliefs to do with Non Veganism, "we grew up this way, it must be right, you think you're better than me, you cant change the world, what you need is a good steak" (ugh…I've heard that one many times) are quite similar to many arguments in favour of the supernatural.  "We grew up this way, who are you to tell us what to do", "what you need is a good communion wafer" (Just kidding), perhaps the worst, "we don't tell YOU what to do, we accept YOUR "personal choice"…", these have far reaching effects. 


I grew up going to religious schools, I was often asked to read a prayer in the morning and we studied Religious Education. For about an hour each day. I rather enjoyed it, I would have went to a "more extreme" religious school if possible, it was very interesting to go along with it all! That and the fact the uniforms were Green, far nicer than the dark Red and Gold of James Hargest High School, even if it does mean picking "Slytherin" over "Gryffindor" :-) We were never told to believe in Religion over Science, supposed miracles were "the Bible would have us believe…" not, "THIS IS TRUE!  DONT LISTEN TO THOSE NASTY SCIENTISTS!".  We were taught Evolution, not "Intelligent Design". Growing up, I thought Religion was rather funny, that anyone could take it seriously, the rituals, the apparent "not eating flesh on a Friday" of times past, which stayed alive at Verdon College as "during Lent"

 for Senior students (apparently, I never remember it being told to us as a Senior, I do remember hearing it from the principle as a Junior), and thinking "wow!  This is nuts!  IMAGINE NOT EATING MEAT, FOR A FEW DAYS!!!"


Perhaps such fastening traditions are where nonsense such as "Fish do not have flesh, they are instead counted as a Vegetable, much like Tomatoes, Fruit, Vegetable, Animal, Vegetable, its all the same" came from? And of course, the "Fillet-O-Fish", does anyone actually find that name "classy"?  It reminds me of Kwik-E-Mart!

 "The sandwich was created by a McDonald's franchise owner in Cincinnati, Ohio, named Lou Groen in 1962. Groen owned a McDonald's in a predominantly Roman Catholic neighborhood where his Catholic customers engaged in the practice of not eating meat on a Friday. (a practice more common in the '60s but that the Catholic Church continues to consider obligatory on Fridays during Lent). The product was named by Cye Landy of Cye Landy Advertising Agency, which was the advertising firm for that particular McDonald's franchise. It has become popular with people who cannot eat meat-based products, particularly Muslims: fish is always considered Halal, whilst Halal meat requires special slaughter techniques”


I first became interested in being a militant Atheist (don't worry, I'm in the Peace Corp), engaging in (philosophical) warfare with the Salvation Army, after hearing more of "Youth Groups", of getting young Adults to sing and dance, and basically become indoctrinated.  How we grow up stays with us for life, it can be very hard to shake off, I believe its crazy that most parents would ask for their Children not to hear about Veganism, of how all Animals should remain our friends, until they are what, 20? And had 20 years of "this is normal" drilled into them, by being around people, some 99% of whom are not Vegan?  20 years of large Animal Welfare groups telling people its hard to be Vegan?  Or that Vegans are "pushy"? The same with religion. 


Seeing that one of these "Youth Groups" was flying over an Australian preacher to spread FUD, Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt in the young adults minds, "Is that "evolution" thing just some THEORY?"… …"Did Jesus really want us to believe in "fossils"? "


I'd seen the Richard Dawkins special "The Root of All Evil",

Dawkins was against the title, explaining no one thing was the cause of ALL "evil". It shows a religious school in the UK, where special education books are given out to the children, who are kept isolated on separate computer work areas, each with some ungodly small monitor. To each question, the answer seemed to be "Jesus did it", either that or "God did it". Teacher: "Randy, why do we kill 56 Billion land animals each year?"  Randy: "uhhhh, because The Jesus said so?"  Teacher: "shocking grammar, but full marks for saying Jesus!  You're going to heaven!" Enough!  I felt like I needed to be more vocal about Atheism. My current last episode, 44 had me go off the rails about Evolution and Atheism, for those interested in hearing more, please listen to that episode :-)

 Whenever I notice more than 5 people downloading my show, I try and be more controversial, more "divisive", and so I start talking more about Concordes and specially delivered cakes from the other side of the world, as well as Religion, and how crappy "Open Source" software is, always crashing on my Mac.  The next episode I'll bash "Rock n Roll", by pointing out the superiority of Hip Hop! Hopefully that will alienate those outside of the "grimy inner city", like myself, and so a sustainable population of 5 listeners can be maintained in equilibrium :-)


Anyone can be "the fastest" runner, they can train so hard they'll be dead by 20, shoot themselves up with steroids, or maybe they are Genetically Engineered to perfection. Imagine instead an Olympic race where everyone wanted to finish sixth!  Where the runners bunch up, try and allow the others to pass them, even bending down the hurdles for their competitors with a smile!  Now thats FAR more entertaining!  :-)


I think its best if I leave the rantings against religion of a 23 year old woodworker until another episode, I'd like everyone here today to stay until the end, or the cake runs out, last person to leave has to do all the dishes! :-)Thank you for the chance to be blasphemous Randy :-)


Tim Gier

Thanks Jordan, Carolyn Bailey will be asking the next question.  Please go ahead Carolyn.


Carolyn Bailey

Thanks for that, Tim.


Jordan, you refer to the chickens who share your life as your chicken-friends. You’ve also mentioned that you prefer to refer to other animals as Mr X and Mrs X. …


Jordan Wyatt

sounds mysterious!


Carolyn Bailey:

Could you explain the importance of the way we refer to other animals, and the consequences of referring to other animals with terms such as “it”?


Jordan Wyat:

Hi Carolyn!  Fancy seeing you here :-)

Come here often?


I grew up with a Female dog, Molly, who people would almost unanimously declare "boy", "come here BOY", "good boy"  It really annoyed me, well, I thought it was funny too, but why would we assume another animal is always Male? I think its nicer to refer to the animals I look after as "Mr" or "Ms", no real reason,

a), its humourous (damn American autocorrect…no, its not your funny bone, humerus!) and

b) more respectful than "YOU THERE!" :-) 


On earlier episodes I mention a travelling circus, who had an Elephant they called "Jumbo". I really do hate that name, the fact she was called "Jumbo", after a famous MALE Elephant, and well, because she was big, ha, so they called her Jumbo, git it?  If one of their children had a large nose  would they call her "Big Nose" on her birth certificate? A recent news reporting called her "he" for much of the story, and then switched to "her" in other sections.  If she had always been referred to as a "Ms Elephant", that wouldn't have happened :-) 


Initially, I often said "Mrs Elephant", for some reason I saw "Mrs" as being more… "proper"?  Blame that on going to religious schools, my mother never married, and I would have hated for her to have taken "The Husbands" surname.  Interestingly though, my Great Grandmother, maternal was "Rose Crook", her surname an "old fashioned" term for "sick", "I'm crook".  :-)  She married, and took on her partners name, well, perhaps we should say it was forced upon her, expected to change, which was… "Young".  She went from being "Sick", to being Young :-) 


My maternal Grandmothers name is Fairly, to keep the joke going no doubt, if her mother was not forced (perhaps by expectation) to change her name, she would have been "Fairly Crook", she was however "Fairly Young" :-)


I went to school with a "Rose", surname "Waters", who had a sister my age "Krystal".  Rose Waters, Krystal Waters.  One of my best friends was a "Clearwater". Names are interesting!  And they matter. 


Calling someONE an "it", or a "thing" is horrible, to see someone as having no rights, or *almost* no rights, as being property of another is about as low as you can go, I don't care how great you are at limbo dancing :-)


I think the greatest term is "friends", you are stuck with your family, or rather, they're stuck with being genetically linked to me! You choose your friends, you like them, you love them (unless you're both a couple Manly Men, in which you merely nod as you buy each other a pint), Friends is a great term - thats why I made sure to grab it for myself, and patent the *censored* out of it!


"(animal common name)-friend", Chicken Friends, the annual royalties should easily allow me to one day buy a Concorde of my own, Friends is a great term - thats why I made sure to grab it for myself, and patent the *censored* out of it! "(animal common name)-friend", Chicken Friends, the annual royalties should easily allow me to one day buy a Concorde of my own, with a full time Cake chef.Thank you for your question Carolyn :-)


Roger Yates

Thanks Jordan.  The next question comes from Barbara DeGrande... Barb...


Barbara DeGrande

Thanks Roger.


Where did you learn about abolitionism and what have you found that works best in teaching others about animal rights theory?


Jordan Wyatt

Hi Barbara!


Barbara DeGrande



Jordan Wyatt

I learnt about the Abolitionist Approach through Elizabeth Collins, Sam Tucker and William Paul initially. I should never forget to mention our never heard from friend Vish, who lives in Wellington, who is also a great inspiration to me.  Vish works in the background, talking with people in the streets, he's not into taking credit, either for his own ideas, or those of others, like I am! :-) Its quite possible Vish had already thought of using "Friend" as a suffix, well, too late now!  He wont see penny one from me!


At first I felt like just promoting Veganism was "too hard", and it couldn't be practical.  Remember, I'd never met another Vegan myself, I don't think I'd even heard the term "Vegan" until a month or so before I was Vegan myself. I don't quite remember the dates, or facts, in that way I'm JUST like Wikipedia, its all a matter of the current edited version, who cares about what ACTUALLY happened! I do remember The Silence of The Lambs having a big effect on me, reading the book, and listening to the audiobook in particular.  "IT rubs the lotion on ITS skin or else IT gets the hose again", of how "Buffalo Bill" didn't care about killing animals, of sewing skin, of "animal" or "human" origin, of preserving using Brains, of having some animals being special, or indeed, "Precious", and others being an "IT".


Heres the famous line, all six seconds worth

 Whatever would we do without YouTube, and readily accessible resources online? I think its an effective story, most people my age will have seen Silence of the Lambs, not many have thought about it though.  Of how Clarice wanted to save "this one Lamb" from slaughter, how she woke up on the farm, late one night as a girl, hearing them cry, hearing them SCREAM.  How she still felt that way as an adult, she still heard "the Lambs screaming", Lecter asked her to contact him if ever they went away. And yet she too, like Buffalo Bill, had never thought about how we treat ALL animals. 


Mention is made of chopping up Chickens, who are no less lovely than my own Chicken Friends, about how it was "grisly" work", with a whole corpse, but "much cheaper" to "do it yourself".  About how Clarice was about to throw away a "Chicken Neck", her roomate saying "gimme that gorgeous thing"… about how awful it is we kill other animals. I slowly put all this together, and after learning about other Vegans who promoted *Veganism*, I wanted to help too.  I wanted to help my Chicken Friends. How could I ever say "buy Happy Chicken Flesh!", or "Buy Happy Eggs!", when I love these Chickens so very much? 


They are no more special than any other Chickens in the world, just as our own friends and family are not *inherently* worth any more. Strangers are just friends we haven't met yet, I'll keep saying that until one pretends to be injured, with a fake plaster cast on his arm, hits me over the head with it as I try and lift his sofa into the back of his van, and he then dumps me down a hole, having asked what "dress size" I am, wanting to skin me!


The Silence of the Lambs is a wonderful book, try the Audio version, simply marvelous, and think about it as an Animal lover.  I think by using popular culture, we as Vegans can be most effective in promoting *Veganism* Like the popular songs you include in your show, Veganacious,

 thats great Barbara :-) Thank you for your time :-)


Jason Ward

Thanks Jordan - Tim Gier has next question- take it away Tim!!!


Tim Gier

You’ve talked about how you’ve always felt a friendship with other animals.  On November 18, 2010, you wrote: “I save any animals I can, be they Mice from cats, Flies in a Spider web, or a Bird trapped in a glass box.” I’ve had people tell me that vegans are a special kind of person, who have more empathy for others than non-vegans.  What do you think?  Were you destined to be vegan, and is there just no hope for most other people?


Jordan Wyatt

Hola El Presidenté Gier! I don't think there is anything special about Vegans, I'm about as far removed from "The Typical American Vegan" as can be- "Waah, I'm a whiny liberal who drives a Prius, why arn't there more Starbucks in this suburb?/ /oh, Starbucks is sooooo commercial, I only buy Fair Trade magical coffee beans from "Peet's" here in Berkley, which will grow into an organic, GE free Coffee Stalk…" - anyone can be Vegan :-) I do indeed believe its as easy to be Vegan as not, perhaps "Peer Pressure" can have an effect on you.


I certainly wish I wasn't the only Vegan I knew, I don't like when people mock me for being Vegan, as I see it personally, for respecting Animals. Calling yourself "an Animal lover", and others "ANIMAL EXPLOITERS!!!" gets us nowhere though! I figure there will always be people who kill other animals, just as there are people who still kill other human animals.  Either your Vegan World of Octal years away (, or my Magical* Cloud Of Purple Smoke That Veganises Everyone (not really magic, just really sophisticated tech, probably the next model up from The Smoke Monster on LOST ) will take care of the stragglers. The truly special people are those who invent a fancy title for themselves :-) 


We may be very different people El Presidenté, one an HTC EVO on a CDMA network, the other a GSM Apple iPhone, but surely we can work out ownership of this Vegan World that will slowly progress over 8 years time, then instantly, violetly (but nonviolently) puff forwards in a curtain of smoke. 'm willing to let you have that crappy Northern Hemisphere I've been hearing so much about, just as long as you take the hole in the Ozone layer down my way, sure as heck wasn't our doing! Thank you for your question, El Presidenté Gier.*quickly registers domain*


Carolyn Bailey

Thanks Jordan!


Roger Yates

Here’s my next q for the Dic. In a blog entry of 12 November 2010, you write about worshipping “a wicked cult of celebrity.”  No doubt you believe only dictators 4 life should be worshipped but you were particularly animated by Alicia Silverstone’s lapses from her veganism and her defence of being a “flexible” vegan. Do you think this kind of thing highlights the problems of using “celebrities” to endorse a cause?


Jordan Wyatt

Hi Dr Yates,Ah yes, the blog entry from the 12th of November, Twenty Ten, why, I believe thats right here *very small cloud of purple smoke and a sharp crack*

From the post:"What a wicked cult of celebrity we create by worshipping "Famous People who go (often sorta) Vegan", just another case of a PETA spokeswoman being "caught out".. ""Being flexible that way makes more people comfortable," she said. "If I'm rigid about it and I'm perfect, then no one is going to be able to be like me because I'll be this icey, rigid thing.""" "Even a proud vegan like [sic]Alicia Silverestone gives in to temptation once in a while." (Jordan:-) I can assure you "Us Magazine", I'm never close to being "tempted" when it comes to so much as looking at dead flesh, and the byproducts we take from animals. 


The thought of eating something nonvegan; the blood, the guts, their chopped off heads, their dead skin, a mothers milk, the "Hen's Periods" that are their eggs....UGH! " to end my quoting now What terrible spelling mistakes from this "Us Magazine", no wonder they're being squeezed out of business by online blogs and the like.  Is "Icy" a difficult word to spell?  What happened to "I before E except after C, except in Icy  where there is indeed and I and C, but for the love of Dog, so help me, don't include an 'e'!" ?  I do think having "Celebrities" as figureheads and role models is problematic, would you trust someone who kinda starred in Batman and Robin?

 I did like "Mr Freeze" though, as a child!  When the plant lady "Poison Ivy" finds out she has a Future Gov-er-Nader , and Future Future President as cellmate near the very end, "Winter has come at last", ha, very funny Mr Ar-NULD! That movie was terrible, why, oh why did Batman have prominent rubber nipples on the Bat-suit? 


Thank heavens the movie wasn't released in 3D!  I wouldn't trust "Bat Girl" on nutritional advice, would you? Whats so difficult about not occasionally eating "Dairy" products?  Theres not a single Non Vegan item I desire, I think its a matter of personal taste, that she must somehow still have fond memories of Pus Containing Stolen Breast Milk  From A Strange Mother Who Was Forcibly Impregnated X, surely you can get some kinda therapy for that?  Sitting on a non-skin couch, and talking to your Vegan Therapist "Until the hours up"?


Who cares what trumped up, who-knows-how-they-are-special "celebrities" say or do?  Lets be selfish, and focus on ourselves!  That said, my next episode is to do with memes, of a common phrase in rap music from a Vegetarian rapper back in the 80's,  thats spread forward, without the kinda-vegetarian message meaning, and how cool it would be to have a Vegan Gangsta Rapper, it would probably end up a (Lupe) Fiasco though, "Yo Yo, I iz 50 Cents nonhuman Animal commonly called "dawwwwwg", fidy cent,  just like what the Chicken Killing drug costs thanks ta mah main man Erik…"  Thank you for your question Dr Yates :-)


Jason Ward

Carolyn has the next question - go ahead please


Carolyn Bailey

Thanks, Jay. It was mentioned earlier, Jordan, that you would save any other animal you could, including a mouse from a cat.  If the cat was wild, and there was a likelihood of that mouse being the only food for that cat for some time, would you still save the mouse from the cat? Why or why not?


Jordan Wyatt

Hi Carolyn :-)Yes, yes I would save that hypothetical Mouse, if I could. I love Blackbirds, especially the Males (bird Trivia, common Blackbirds have "Black" Males, with Females a camouflaged brown!),  I like their overall body shape, their strong Black colour, and their yellow eyes and beak! That is, of course, until I realised a Ms Hen was so much nicer, and like sitting on my knee, and eating bread from my hand.  Not to mention her eyes, which were like the *censored* Eye of Sauron, from our beloved Lord of the Rings! ( please come to New Zealand, we need Tourist Dineros! ) Heres the last video I have of her alive, I'd love for this to be seen by more people.

  I always believe in helping the weaker animal, the victim, not the predator.  How terrible Cats bodies are, their retractable claws, how they leap, and climb, swipe, hiss and spit.  What do Mice do that’s offensive?  Nibble on your Soy Cheese?  Why ever did we decide to believe that Cats and Dogs, fairly violent animals all things considered, were "pets", and more "special" than the more gentle animals, why do we not instead look after Rabbits more regularly, or Chicken Friends?


Recently, my Chicken Friends have been very scared of neighborhood cats, who seem to lie in wait to hurt them, they refuse to come down from their perch initially in the morning. I close them in for the night as it gets dark, Chickens cannot seem to see in the dark, more than once I've noticed they've been on their favourite sleeping beam, they sleep standing upright, together for solidarity and warmth, with a Cat watching them from the open door, able to see them perfectly, while they are mostly unaware, I believe they can generally smell and hear Cats before I can.


With this hypothetical situation, where a Mouse would be the "only food" (I don't think we should use the term "food", "prey" would be more judgmental, and hence I'd prefer it more!) "for some time", well, how long can a Cat live for, after killing and eating one small Mouse?  Its a little like the desert island hypothetical, where I, a 1.95 M tall young man  would be somehow left alone with a Chicken, exactly how long could I be expected to live for, after killing my only friend on the island?  Personally, I could well imagine rather dying with a friend, than dying alone, knowing I'd killed them, dying a slightly prolonged death, with only a handful of feathers for company.  A Mouse on the other hand, would presumably be more capable of living in leaner times, able to eat just about anything.  I love idea of insects who live off seemingly ANYTHING, from eating paper, to the glue from stamps!  Very amusing! 


I wouldn't let my own Chicken Friends kill other animals too, I love them, they are some of my best friends,  i see them each and every day, but they are still not "that much more important" than other animals, that I'd let them kill a Snail or Fly, or even the hated Spider, scourge of Mankind, Friend to the Australian, that I'd never seen before. Thank you for your question Carolyn.


Tim Gier

Thank you Jordan, mangus o'shales, the man with the coolest name in town, will ask his question now...mangus?


Mangus O’Shales

In one of your videos I thought I saw a little chick with her mother. Vegans usually make it so the animals who live with them can’t have babies.  Do you do that to your chicken-friends?


Jordan Wyatt

Hi Mangus, nice meeting you :-)  Something about your name suggests you're from an area still served by "our" mighty Concorde, is that true? Did you also have a fantastic Cake sent your way, care of Dr Yates?  Did the cheapskate write clearly "Cash on Delivery" on the box you received too?  what a lovely Vegan cake!

  Those videos must have been "photoshopped" somehow, its those gosh darned…. (is it Vegan to use a "scapegoat"?)…. Ok, ya got me, I'll come peacefully.  My Chicken Friends had Chicks, there were seven who survived, hatching, there are THREE, count them, THREE who lived to adulthood.  I have photos from the day they hatched, they are probably an hour/hours old in these photos

And my favorite photos, at a Few Days old, when I'd put them out in the glasshouse, with the door closed, food and water provided, for protection during the day.

Chickens are easy to care for, I could look after a great deal more, if possible, I would.  There are so very many Chickens out there, already born, who need a home Mangus, I'm sure you'll agree  It would be irresponsible for me to "let" them breed.  I break their eggs, like on Animal Sanctuaries such as Peaceful Prairie to stop more being hatched. I've included this video before in our chat, I'd love for people to watch a second time, when you have time :-)  Here we see them enjoying their eggs.

 I would strongly commend anyone who is interested in caring for Chickens, they really do take care of themselves, I would generally only need to close them in at night, and open the door when I get up in the morning.  They feed themselves, they share food among each other, plants, weeds, bread, (Falafel!) , Apple, Chips (I've given them potato chips ONCE, I don't think its a good idea, they basically helped themselves, and I let them have a couple extra, broken up.  They were very happy to try them) and water to drink.


They of course need shelter from the rain, wind and sun, thats no issue, the door to their shed is always open, as is the glasshouse. So very many need homes, I hope anyone who can will open their lives to Chicken Friends too. Thank you for keeping me honest Mangus, If you're an Abolitionist Vegan, who promotes Veganism as easy, as a moral baseline, creatively and nonviolently, I think it would be great to have a "bumper" intro from you, from anyone else talking today in this chat :-)

Thank you Mangus :-)


Roger Yates

Thanks Jordan. The final pre-registered question is from media star (Wild Time Radio) TIM GIER, just finished signing autographs...Tim?


Tim Gier

Jordan, you’ve written about your experiences talking to non-vegans in various forums (okay, fora) and the strong reactions you get to your message of veganism. Why do you keep doing it?  Wouldn’t it be easier for you to just talk to like-minded people and avoid the headaches?


Jordan Wyatt

Hi El Presidenté! Yes, I often joined popular Forums, full of Flora and Fauna, where I'd join in for the topics of the day. TradeMe is New Zealands knockoff of "eBay", a vast majority of New Zealand uses it, our glorious nation boasts 4 Million people, according to the site stats,

 Some 650K people visit EACH DAY, well, that includes people who might view the site on their iPhone (or EVO), as well as their Mac and internet enabled Toilet  (whaa?  You don't have those in Florida?  You might call them "The principle feature" of "The Restroom", if exhibiting stereotypical US modesty about "The Crapper"), in any case, a *censored* load of New Zealand uses Trade Me.


I was very angry when young Sam Morgan sold it to an Australian Mega Co, when we could have instead had a dynasty of our own, after being started by a young NZer who wanted a secondhand heater for a Wellington flat, and selling it for a couple hundred million, now its rolled into one of the large Australian newspaper/media corps… not cool! I would most commonly use the "Farming" and "Pets and Animals" sections, here is "Farming"

I'd always be polite when posting, never swore, the worst I ever said was "X is an old crank", and described the  "unhinged" folk of P&A once as "a bunch of Cat Ladies"

 Whatever would we do without Wikipedia?  Well, according to its own article on itself, perhaps showing sentience, we'd dieeeeeee! I'd post about current news stories, often asking for Farmers to join me via Skype, none accepted!  They would however complain of "The media putting the boot in" beating up poor Farmers all the time by covering "Animal Welfare issues", which were ALWAYS kreeched to be "unbalanced" and "one sided", no matter how often the farmers in charge were shown shuffling away from the waiting camera crews! I always remained polite to the Farmers, no matter how often they'd tell me about how they killed a bunch of Chickens yesterday, how they were going to send me photos etc. Its best to think of the people who are reading your posts when talking online aim for the people reading, dont worry about the abusive posters Words cant hurt you, I know we kill 56 Billion land animals each year, of which some 49 Billion are Chickens who are in no real way different than my own Chicken Friends.


I don't assume the fetal position and cry myself to sleep all day and night about it, it doesn't really affect me anymore.  I've always found it easy to confront these problems head on, by finding out as much about them as I can, reading books and industry websites.  One book I read about our local Freezing Works (a slaughterhouse designed for export, you know, even under "unworkable" unsubsidised conditions, our Animal Agriculture sectors export frozen corpses globally…) was "A Cut Above", the Alliance Freezing Works, where my father worked for about a decade. As "milestones" came up, they'd celebrate the Sheep picked as "the millionth "processed" ", it seems they used a nailgun to fire a card explaining as such into the animals heads. The tiny black and white photos (ha!) from the 1980's certainly made it LOOK like the notes were somehow held on with a nail. 


Those corpses received other special treatment, there were always big celebrations, and I think that one was usually "the guest of honour", all levels of the Freezing Works would pose for photos with it. what a terrible way to treat these animals! of course, they did see them as an "it" Another time there was a protest against some kind of regulation, it was taking too long to kill animals, so, the farmers drove "their stock" into town, released them onto the Invercargill streets to cause havoc, there were photos of "the traffic cops unable to keep up", ha ha, very funny, right?, with Farmers laughing at "townies" who couldn't control a flock of terrified animals who've never seen a city before, much less be running wild down its main street. Well, they then rounded them all up, finally, and took them to a section of land, where they dug a very shallow ditch, for their blood to run down, and starting slitting their throats in the open air, as the news media's television  cameras were shoved right into the animals dying faces.


My father still has a copy of the newspaper coverage, its at his Antique and Secondhand shop, where I work, I think he, and many customers, find it all very funny. This was sometime around the 1980's if my memory is correct (it often isn't), I don't know if Farmers would still pull this "hilarious" stunt nowadays, even they have become "too Politically Correct". 


I presume the Sheep killed outside, as a protest, hell, perhaps you could say "as hostages" were unable to be sold as flesh, due to those pesky "health and safety" regulations. They were killed, not for the Farmers profit, but for their enjoyment in making a point, that being… uh, they wanted to kill more Sheep, and were sick of waiting for "processing capability" to come online? I think its good to know as much as possible out the industry I'm opposed to, so I can speak as authoritatively as possible when speaking in public.


Fake Accolades and a supposed "Dictatorship" status of a Third (Rate) Vegan Society also aid in the charade!  Perhaps I need to find a good, Vegan hair gel, people really trust guys with slicked back hair, right? I never got any real positive feedback from the Farmers, perhaps even more violent were those "Cat Ladies" in "Pets and Animals". It was always for interested visitors to the forum, that I'd post about the current news stories Half of the P&A threads are discussing which animals are "the best" for old Mr Mittens the Cat, "oh, my Charlie, he's ALLERGIC to Ducks, Chickens, Goats (perhaps?), Spider we can only feed Him "eye fillet", like Bethune", they are incredibly hostile to the idea of not harming other animals. 


I'm ALWAYS, apart from the one "Cat Ladies" comment, polite, but it does not matter. Somehow, one of the main pack in farming (they're all around 60-70 it seems) decided I must be Gay, which is apparently a crime in Rural NZ.  From their anecdotes, its more common to find workers…sexually abusing the "stock" than to have openly Homosexual people nearby. I never denied being, or not being Homosexual.  I'm a High and Primary School Graduate (I'm not going to let you forget my credentials!), I remember "gay jokes" from in the playground, during "playtime".  It makes no sense to argue, with these people thrice my age, "I'm not Gay!" "yes you ARE!"  "No I'm NOT!"…, I save my off topic ranting in public for Evolution, apparently :-)  And what difference would it make WERE I gay?  None, and I often used to state that, which, as we all know, along with my wearing of a "Some Chicks Marry Chicks, Get Over It" shirt a CLEAR declaration of "I'M HOMOSEXUAL!"


One farmer deduced, "what kind of straight guy would wear something promoting equal rights for homosexuals!", uhhhh, how about one concerned with equal rights for all? Farmers and those in rural areas are perhaps the most "conservative" people here, I remember "The Springbok Tour of '81", yes, it was 6 years before I was born, but I sure remember it like it were yesterday.

 There was to be a sporting boycott of South Africa due to Apartheid.  Many, especially in rural areas, were opposed to this, they wanted their rugby, damnit!!!   The slogan used was "Keep politics out of Sport", a little like the "non overlapping magisteria", of keeping Science and Religion separate

Well, I think the rights of Darker Skinned South Africans not to be the *property* of Lighter Skinned South Africans goes beyond wanting to see another country play a few games against "Our Boys", don't you?!?


Yet one poll had some 70+ percent of my region being FOR the tour…the worst result, in terms of *basic* Human Rights over watching a few games of sport, in the whole country. Its mind-blowing!It can take a long time for people to change, especially when "they've grown up", been indoctrinated in a particular way. Last year, "a freak occurrence of bad weather", that happens every year, killed many "stock".  Farmers were shown upset, "because they've all died", well, thats more likely to be because a grown adult Sheep was valued at around 90 dollars NZ , lets say, uh, about 68 USD, for someones life.  And as a dead infant, they were worth a buck, a single dollar.  Using Google to run the numbers, thats about 75 US cents for the life of a baby. 


Their dead, and rotten looking bodies were used as  "slink skins" "Slinkskins Ltd collect these casualties of nature from farms around New Zealand. They are tanned and finished to a high standard at our factory in Southland for manufacturers who produce soft, lightweight garments and gloves which then sell to fashion houses throughout the world"

Hear that, Non Vegans in the rest of the world?  Do we want to be wearing a dead babies skin? A few skins, stitched together?  Would you want to "Eat The Sausage" after seeing "How its made"? The dead, filthy, rotten looking corpses put into piles on the wet land, moved with forklifts, ran through conveyor belts, and no doubt caustic tanning processes? Isn't this incredible to believe?  Who would ever imagine this stuff?  Do you think, if we were all Vegan (which we will be, due to 8 years logical progression and then the puff of purple smoke), that we'd one day wander away from mainstream thought, "gee, you see that dead baby animal, who died from exposure to the elements?


"Boy, I'd sure like to pick up that rotten looking body, and do all kinds of crazy things, to end up with a pair of dead skin gloves!" ? No matter who we are talking with, no matter where they were born, or how they grew up, its easy enough to promote Veganism.


They might not listen to you, they might call you all kinds of slurs, who cares? It doesn't cost much in terms of time or energy to post a few messages in a couple forums when "Animal Welfare" stories break the national news! Farmers are people too.  I absolutely HATE what they do, I don't hate them. What would be the point?  I'm not going to send them death threats, or try and run them down if I see them crossing the street.  It doesn't help the animals being "used" and killed by the billion. Creative, nonviolent Vegan education, such as an "Animal Rights" show that talks about Evolution, the Concorde and the fictitious baking of Dr Yates *CAN* help produce more Vegans. A one person "Vegan Society" *CAN* help to promote respect for *ALL* animals, human, and nonhuman. And make you sound more important on your cheap business card. Act now, if you pay the low low annual price of $29.95 (USD too, so its worth more here!), you TOO can also use "-friend" as a suffix, to promote respect to Chicken Friends, nd all others we care about, worldwide!  Our operators (jumps to camera shot of a Rooster pecking at an iPhone) are standing by, call now! Thank you very much for your question, El Presidenté Gier.


Tim Gier

Jordan, may I ask a quick follow-up?


Jordan Wyatt

Sure thing :-)


Tim Gier

Thanks, you mentioned that your father & his friend still laugh about the killing of others for little more than to make a point..... Is it a significant problem for you to be surrounded so closely by these attitudes? Does your living situation make it difficult for you to be who you are?


Jordan Wyatt

It would be easier if we were all Vegan, sure! but no, you know me, as a Dictator of a One Person Vegan Society I dont really care for the opinion of others :-) I'm selfish like that


Carolyn Bailey

Thanks, Jordan. This concludes the formal session of Jordan’s chat today, for which I’d like to sincerely thank Jordan for. Your responses have been helpful and educational. I’d like to open Jordan’s chat up now for any other members who wish to engage him. Please feel free to message myself, Tim, Roger or Jason with your intention to do so. Amanda Hunt would like to ask a question first, please go ahead Amanda.


Jordan Wyatt

I was aiming for "boring" and "rambling", but I'll take those two, thank you Carolyn


Amanda Hunt

Hey, I get really pissed when people bash my veganism, how can i "tell them off" since they think it's ok for them to insult me but im suppose to be nice or look like a bitter vegan, without it escilating? Is it ok to wear controversial vegan shirts?,44449488


Jordan Wyatt:

Hi Amanda!


Amanda Hunt



Jordan Wyatt

I wear some fun shirts. not very often but for special events, like now, I have to!  by mandate of El Presidenté! Heres what I'm wearing right now I dont think overly aggressive shirts are helpful but fun stuff is great! Can I direct everyone this way?

 (and not only because I'm one of the members of the Zazzle store!)


I do have this shirt from Sam Tucker that I wear

 I think its useful thank you for your question Amanda


Carolyn Bailey

Thanks, Jordan!


Kate Go Vegan has a question as well, which Jay will ask for her as Kate is transcribing the chat. Thanks, Jay!


Jason Ward 

Hello, Jordan. Would you advocate the killing of carnivorous plants? Thanks


Jordan Wyatt

Uh, Id rather not travel the jungles of the world killing plants just as I'd rather not kill every predator in the world  however, I certainly wouldn’t sit back and allow one of these monstrous plants to finish ME off! :-) I also find it hard to imagine they could compete with an aggressive Mr Rooster Friend thank you for your question :-)


Jason Ward

Will has the next question - when your ready Will, please proceed.



not a question more a comment. well done mate keeping at the vegan message where you are. hope you keep at it. respect!


Jordan Wyatt

Thank you Will, cheque ("check") is in the mail :-)


Carolyn Bailey

Thanks again, Jordan!



ta mate


Jordan Wyatt

thank you Will


Carolyn Bailey

Mangus O'Shales would like to ask another question now. Go ahead, Mangus.


Mangus O’Shales

hi again Jordan. what do you think of open rescues like the ones Jose Valle does?


Jordan Wyatt

I find open rescues to be very interesting I disagree with any violence.  I'd find it hard to say "no" to any rescued animals "sorry, you should be going back in The Cage" I wouldnt support any violent actions by these groups The ones that operate here tend to be in the "James Bond" wannabe mood they have some rather odd ideas, and talk about their actions as if they're starring in an action film


I dont know very much about the Jose Valle group, sorry The only Open Rescue groups I've heard of from here in New Zealand tend to be rather violent  on their websites but in public, they promote welfare reforms. I haven’t seen any Open Rescue groups here that speak out explicitly for Veganism they're more into "KILL THA EXPLOITAR!!!!" thank you for your question :-)


Kate Go Vegan:

I will say I was really surprised that Jordan who seems knowledgeable on many things doesn't seem to know about "Jose Valle's group" - i.e. the largest real animal rights group in the world.


Kate Go Vegan:

Jose Valle is the co-founder of Igualdad Animal / Animal Equality. They  ALWAYS denounce violence and ALWAYS promote veganism.


Tim Gier


Roger Yates

Cheers Jordan. And now another question from Barbara DeGrande.... Barb....


Barbare DeGrande

Thank you Dr. Yates! How do you keep so well informed on so many topics. You are much more aware of what is going on politically in the US than most US citizens!


Jordan Wyatt

I listen to this little known production, The Daily Show"?  I think you guys might have it available too?


Barbara DeGrande



Jordan Wyatt

also, in the morning , I find

 to be useful, thank you Barbara :-)


Barbara DeGrande

Thanks Jordan.


Carolyn Bailey

At this time I’d like to sincerely thank Jordan for being so generous with his time today, and for providing us with some education and entertainment, which has been very much appreciated!


Thanks Jordan, for being our guest today.


Jason Ward

Thanks Jordan!!


Barbara DeGrande

Thank you Jordan!


Lisa Viger

Great chat, Jordan, thanks!


Tim Gier

Yes, thank you Jordan!


Brooke Cameron

Thanks Jordan!


Jordan Wyatt

thank you Carolyn, Jason, Barbara...


Jason Ward

You Rock!!!



Thank you



thanks Jordan


Mangus O’Shales

i agree, another good one.


Jordan Wyatt

I prefer RnB, but thank you Jason


thank you Sadia





Jordan Wyatt

thank you Will!


Roger Yates:

ARZone exists to promote rational discussion about our relations with other animals and about issues within the animal advocacy movement. Please continue the debate after a chat by starting a forum discussion or by making a point under a transcript. 

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Comment by Carolyn Bailey on January 26, 2011 at 8:43

I think your English is very good. I encourage you to write yourself rather than using the translator, it's easy to understand you. :)
Comment by Eduardo Terrer on January 26, 2011 at 8:00

Don't worry, i'm not offended.

I think like Kate. I understand Jordan was writing in live, and i understand he didn't know IA.

I can understand too that the perception of the question and the response isn't like the perception that Jordan had only reading the question.

He thought about open rescue, but the question was about open rescue of IA, and then when he was wrinting the answer, he was talking about his knowledge of this.

But when a reader is reading the transcript, he reads the name IA (Jose Valle) and reads the answer of violents groups.

Then the reader can associate both questions in his mind and think open rescue are violence, or open rescue of IA are violence.

I'm sorry for my english. Now i'm writing in english directly, without google translator.


Thanks to all, and Go Vegan!!!

Comment by Kate✯GO VEGAN+NOBODY GETS HURT Ⓥ on January 26, 2011 at 2:07

Hello Jordan.

Thank you for providing this strong evidence of the New Zealand Open Rescue group endorsing welfare reforms. Like you I don't think such measures are conducive to achieving animal rights.

You can be sure that "Jose Valle's group" i.e. Igualdad Animal do not advocate welfare reforms.


You were asked "What do you think of open rescues like the ones Jose Valle does?"

You replied by talking about what you understood to be "open rescues" seeming not to realise that by definition Open Rescues are not violent. What you described is entirely different to the actual Open Rescues that Jose Vallé and others at Igualdad Animal do. I recognised what you said as being erroneous and I considered this insinuation to be offensive. I was offended that your comment implied that there was no ethical difference between those who rescue individuals by doing Open Rescues (i.e. nonviolently) and those who do other forms of activism (which may include acts of violence).

Many seem to think it was quite reasonable for you to talk about your local groups instead of José Vallés group. I would agree with this if the groups or actions you referred to actually were "like José Vallé's group", but clearly what you described is totally different to what Igualdad Animal / Animal Equality do.

So let's think about the similarities and differences between these groups. I don't see any evidence here or elsewhere of New Zealand Open Rescue advocating the use of violence, which if they did it this would indicate that they were using the name "Open Rescue" incorrectly.

As stated in the links I offered, the accepted definition of Open Rescue is to nonviolently rescue nonhumans from situations of exploitation, and to record their rescues for use as an educational tool to campaign against speciesism. When I referred to The Philosophy of Open Rescue this is what I was referring to. This is significantly distinct from traditional rescue which may or may not resort to using violence. It seems to me that you and others may not realise that there is this significant difference. I was disappointed that your comments were likely to compound many people’s misunderstandings of these important concepts.

I stated that I thought you had made a serious mistake. We all do make mistakes and hopefully we learn from them. I can see how I may have made a mistake in not taking greater care with the tone of my comment. If I caused offense to you by it then please accept my apology.

It seems may also have made an error in not stating that I was responding not only to things said during the chat but also to things said afterwards in the comment thread. Thanks to Roger for pointing out my error there.


Thank you everyone who has contributed to this discussion. Thankyou Jordan for the chat that initiated it.

Thankyou Barbara, whose contibution is greatly valued by me personally, as it is by everyone else I am sure. 

In particular a big thank you to Eduardo for his words of understanding and support, which have given me the courage to write this attempt at an explanation.


Muchas gracias

Antispeciesist greetings

Comment by Jordan Wyatt on January 25, 2011 at 20:51

Today I got an email from NZ Open Rescue, this *is* New Zealand's Open Rescue group, they go around the farms, they take video recordings, a few photos, maybe rescue a handful of animals, and then go to SAFE, for this all to be used "to ban FACTORY FARMING", "INTENSIVE FARMING" etc.

In the email received today, they have a bee in their bonnet (hope they took her out gently!) about "farrowing crates", which are the next one of their targets after their self described quote "victory" endquote against sow stalls.



More cruelty exposed in recent pig farm investigation


New Zealand Open Rescue recently investigated a North Island intensive piggery where we documented disgusting conditions inside farrowing and fattening buildings. Sadly these conditions are nothing out of the ordinary - in fact they are the norm. The problem is not with isolated farms but with systems that treat animal...s as units of production - animal machines.

Piglets in the fattening rooms were filthy and covered in flies. They were confined to pens in decrepit rooms inside a building that looked like it should be condemned.

The sows confined to farrowing crates were clearly suffering. They all looked like they'd lost the will to live and were merely existing. They too were covered in flies and many had contact wounds on their backs from where they constantly rubbed against the crate bars confining them. Again they were imprisoned in a series of rooms that could only be described as miserable. Years worth of cobwebs and filth hung from the ceilings.

We spent two hours inside this farm and felt a heavy sense of years and years worth of suffering and misery as we walked from room to room documenting everything.

While it is a victory that sow stalls will be banned in five years, absolutely nothing has been done about farrowing crates which are just as cruel. The photographs of sows in crates from this investigation speak for themselves. The suffering of the sows is apparent in their eyes. To look at them up close and in the flesh, we felt it was like they'd given up all hope, felt no joy and knew they never would.

Its up to the public of New Zealand to make real change for animals imprisoned on factory farms across our country. It was the public that forced a ban on sow stalls and it will be the public that sees an end to all factory farming. Its time for the people of New Zealand to say enough is enough! People power is the only thing that will force these cruel industries to change!

Join us at the March to End Factory Farming, 5 March 2011, Wellington

New Zealand Open Rescue
PO Box 37612
Parnell, Auckland, New Zealand"


When they talk about "the peoples power", they mean consumers rising up...and buying "free range" flesh.  VICTORY!


You'll notice three of their links here are to do with SAFE, who seek Welfare Reforms, while being run by Vegans, and they also link to the NZ Vegetarian Society website...


When talking with farmers online, often I've had the work of this group and the others (please be clear, this is THE group for "Open Rescue" in NZ, the others are probably a lot smaller, and interchangeable), the farmers will get angry at me, for being Vegan, about the work of these groups, for their visiting farms without permission, and "pushing free range", as the Farmers describe it. 

I've seen the links to these groups websites that explicitly state to record video of "cockroaches up the walls", of "sick looking animals" etc, the farmers have sent this around their own email groups, to my knowledge, these "what to record" guidelines were taken down.


They do their thing, I focus on what I can do, by promoting explicit Veganism, not demonising certain farmers.

I might cover these New Zealand groups in a future episode.


Thank you for your comments Eduardo.

Comment by Eduardo Terrer on January 25, 2011 at 10:11

I see.
But several of us that we believed that Jordan's comment wasinappropriate.
I do not want to go to defend anyone, but I think the last comment attacking someone who has given his opinion. I see no need tospeak in the terms of this last comment.
Go vegan Kate has an opinion (which I have also given) and if you would refer to me instead of her (which should have done, since it was I who started this review) I would have felt offended.
This tone becomes uncomfortable participating. I'm testing the prospect of Jordan, and criticized the way he think of open rescues because it seemed disingenuous.
However, if it was a misunderstanding I see no major problem or relevance.

Assuming that is an individual (Jordan) reported on the movement, it is strange he did not know at Animal Equality and philosophy. I see very appropriate that someone posts, then, links to AI and how they work, where they have come straight into the conversation.

Finally, I see no relevance in the statement it makes about the fires.I do not see the relationship between fire and criticize this conversation.


Comment by Carolyn Bailey on January 25, 2011 at 7:05

Some people who free animals do so with the use of violence, that's why some people still have that image. 

Some direct action activists do care more about their ego than the work they're doing. I don't recall, myself, ever saying they all do or even the majority do, but certainly some do. I know a person who believes he's going to "take down" every exploiter single-handedly. Mind you, he's not quite sure who is and isn't an exploiter and has no idea how he should determine that. He just likes the idea of being a hero. These people exist and shouldn't be encouraged. 

Comment by blackpanther on January 25, 2011 at 4:35

I agree with Brandon: why do some people here still have the image of people who free animals as violent people? why would it be violent to free animals? you can free them and harm no one!

and I begin to be a bit tired of a word that is an insult here: "welfarist". When you do some action to save animals, or to diminish their sufferings here you may easily be called a's not being open-minded, as you can help relieve animal suffering in this world and be vegan and fight for the end of animal exploitation.....can't you?

for example some people attack Nathan Winograd (who fights for no-kill shelters) I can't understand why, as the same people attack PETA when they euthanize cats and dogs.......sometimes, I'm lost, and amazed by certain reactions.....

The comments on the chats are hard sometimes, and not very friendly! but, I probably feel things differently being french, and not having those kinds of debates or argumentations here.....

Comment by Kate✯GO VEGAN+NOBODY GETS HURT Ⓥ on January 25, 2011 at 1:39

Hello Brandon.

Your comments provide useful links, great quotations and a very clear explanation of these issues.

I agree with all the points you make and I appreciate you taking the time to explain this.

Thank you.


Antispeciesist greetings

Comment by Brandon Becker on January 25, 2011 at 1:10
First, why is it that many are quick to label those in our movement "pro-violent" while never, or rarely, naming those operating animal "farms" and slaughterhouses, vivisection labs, animal-exploiting circuses, zoos, aquaprisons, and others "pro-violent"? This is exactly how industry and their corporate front-groups want you to think. It's nonsense to believe that these industries are merely "responding to demand" from consumers and that direct action activists liberating the victims just care about their egos, being macho, and acting like superheroes.

Next, looking at the links that Jordan Wyatt provided on NZ open rescue groups, you clearly see that to the extent that they promote "welfare" reform, it is a strategic measure that they (rightly or wrongly) believe to be efficient or effective:
- New Zealand Open Rescue says as one of their aims: "To advocate veganism, compassion and justice." Link:
- Animal Freedom Aotearoa says: "We are dedicated to raising awareness about the plight of animals in all animal abuse industries and promoting an an ethic of animal freedom and a vegan lifestyle. We do this through action, education, investigations and direct animal rescues." Link:

Further, I don't see anything on Animal Freedom Aotearoa's site about "humane" slavery or other support for reformist measures. Considering that 98% (or more) animals enslaved for food go throught the factory "farming" system, it makes sense to discuss this. It also makes sense to discuss the intense suffering the victims endure until death in the slaughterhouse.
Comment by Carolyn Bailey on January 24, 2011 at 16:35

Jordan's chat was a serious ARZone chat. The inclusion of humour in no way detracted from the seriousness of the content, or Jordan's responses to some excellent questions.

I'm not sure which comments could be construed as erroneous or offensive. Jordan quite clearly stated that he did not know IA or Jose, the work they have done in the past, or anything whatsoever about them. I don't find that surprising, given the geography. Jordan was asked this question in the open section of his chat, obviously leaving him no time to prepare a response. I admire Jordan for his honesty. 

The links you've provided, Kate, are not the orgs Jordan referred to in his reply. Jordan (again) quite clearly stated that he was referring to orgs in New Zealand who perform open rescues, and has since provided links to at least three of those. One, I know, works with the NZ org SAFE. A welfare org similar to PeTA or Animals Australia. I'm not sure how it can be debated that some OR participants are welfare proponents. 

Similarly, I know people who participate in ORs here in Australia who are not vegan. Again, this can't really be argued. I also know some who, along with links Jordan posted, are supportive of either DA or MDA.

These facts have nothing to do with Jose or IA. IA are an excellent org and I personally give them my full support. I'm really quite perplexed as to how a question in regards to ORs in general, and replied to in regards to NZ ORs, can possibly be considered to have been offensive to anyone else.

How is the "philosophy of open rescue" opposed to violence, welfare reform and advocates veganism? 




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